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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 9:18:44 GMT -5
her growing feelings for Dave, who doesn't fit her ideal, have forced her to question the assumption of that particular future as a given and therefore has challenged her black n white rule- so she's seeing grey! Maybe she even refers to 'being unfaithful' as more complicated - a being unfaithful to herself and her real feelings too? Boy, that's why I love this board! Always getting new points of view! That's a very interesting interpretation, I had never thought it that way! But can be entirely possible. In fact, she was unfaithful to her own feelings, wasn't she?
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 13, 2011 9:56:52 GMT -5
Part of her can't let go of this ideal, and although she knows that David loves her, she still finds those emotions disturbing and messy. - he keeps reminding her that she loves him too. A great truth, casually spoken! So I'm not the only one here who thinks that she knows it!! Pheew Ladies, I have a different point of view on the subject I don't think Maddie was aware of David's feelings to her at that moment. Look at her, she looks at him so confused, so puzzled, and her "What David?" - is the most sincere I've ever heard! She has really no idea what is on his mind. Otherwise, do you really believe she would spend the night with Sam knowing that David, the man she loves, loves her too?
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 10:32:37 GMT -5
Goldie, I don't think she was completely aware of his feelings, I agree with you. But I think in her subconscious she knows it. And she knows about her own love for David, too. I think there's a great deal of denial on the table. She sleeps with Sham because she thinks he would be a good and reasonable choice, and she thinks maybe the fire can be ignited. Maybe she wanted to exorcise David. But there was no way, of course. OMG, am I not really understanding with Maddie's qualms?
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Feb 13, 2011 11:13:18 GMT -5
Goldie and Sandra - love discussing this stuff with you guys! I'm afraid I'm a Romantic at heart - Goldie: I still feel that she was scared of her feelings about David - maybe she didn't realise the extent of his feelings for her? Sleeping with Sam might make this all go away! It's still a terrible thing to do to him though- she betrays them both here. There's no love in that love making with Sam - and she does not feel good afterwards - she thinks about David. The decision she wants to make, deep down in her heart, is such a difficult one. Sandra: I don't understand her qualms either! ;-)
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 11:44:30 GMT -5
There's no love in that love making with Sam - and she does not feel good afterwards - she thinks about David. I see it exactly that way. At first sight, it looks just tender, but looking closely, it's an awkward, strangely sterile act to me. And it certainly doesn't feel right for her. You can read it in her face. She's already regretting it.
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 12:16:41 GMT -5
Goldie and Sandra - love discussing this stuff with you guys! Me too, ladies. That's the problem of us newbies, the others have already discussed the eps. But it's so much more fun if you get feedback on your posts!
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Feb 13, 2011 12:39:38 GMT -5
[/quote]
Me too, ladies. That's the problem of us newbies, the others have already discussed the eps. But it's so much more fun if you get feedback on your posts![/quote]
Yes it is Sandra! I also think it's pretty cool that a thread can be picked up a couple of years later and there's still more to say...let's face it, these particular episodes could be discussed forever :-)
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 12:51:35 GMT -5
these particular episodes could be discussed forever :-) I'm so curious of what you have to say about the next two eppies... the plot thickens!! I got a feeling you might be losing a bit control of your ramblings... I know I did.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 13, 2011 17:45:48 GMT -5
Ladies, I love, love, love to have this lovely little disagreement with you, although I have to admit that it drives me a little bit crazy Well... we can discuss the issue forever, but the point is: what would happen if David did tell her about his feelings? How would the evening end for both of them? For Sham? There could be numerous possibilities, but the one is obvious: she'll never end up with Sham! I know it and you know it So, the question is: who is responsible for all the mess on this particular evening? David didn't tell her about his feelings not because of Sham, or anyone/anything else, or because Maddie behaved or didn't behaved in a certain way, but because he was not ready to tell her, not yet. Just think about it this way.
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 18:03:46 GMT -5
How would the evening end for both of them? For Sham? There could be numerous possibilities, but the one is obvious: she'll never end up with Sham! I know it and you know it Agree! But bear in mind: It always takes two to tango! Do you think it is a good, a wise way to decide: ok, you don't tell me you love me - fine, then I'll sleep with someone else and see if it works out better than with you. It was Maddie, a grown-up, intelligent woman, and nobody else who decided to hit the sheets with Sham! She and nobody else is responsible for her actions, I think! Disgree, disagree, disagree! What do you mean, he was not ready?? He was, that's why he went there, and he started to speak. Sure, I get your point, he should have insisted that he hadn't finished yet, he shouldn't have let Sam steal his thunder, but you have to consider he had been set on an emotional rollercoaster the previous night, when he had gone to Maddie's house to confess his love and found a half-naked stranger at her door. That had been quite a blow. Everybody's always holding in Maddie's favor how confused she was later, but doesn't it occur to you that David was confused, too? He was completely jazzed and needed desperately a little encouragement from Maddie's side (just as you claim that later Maddie in her confusion needed to hear from David that he loved her!). He was insecure, not about his feelings, but about himself. He didn't want to be rejected by Maddie, and at that moment, with all of her reactions (or,more, the lack of them), he simply couldn't be sure about that. I think it's very human to fear and trying to avoid being rejected. He feared that, because he sensed no encouragement in Maddie that evening. Oh, aren't we all crazy? These discussions are great.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 13, 2011 18:33:05 GMT -5
Oh Sandra, here we go again Let's start from the very beginning : Do you think it is a good, a wise way to decide: ok, you don't tell me you love me - fine, then I'll sleep with someone else and see if it works out better than with you.No, this is definitely not a wise way, not at all! But Maddie never thought about it that way! She simply couldn't, because: a) she didn't know about David's feelings at that time and b) it was not just someone else, it was a man she was once with. I did tango once, you are right on this: It definitely takes two But there is always the one who leads, you know? The one who makes the first step? For me it is usually a man, don't you think so? When I say that he was not ready to tell her I mean that he was not ready to tell her. Otherwise, he would tell her, no matter what or who was there! It took him so long to admit the fact that he is actually in love with her, now he needs time to make his declaration. I don't think he would tell her on that rainy night, even if she opened the door... But we'll never know that p.s. love your "thunder" metaphor a lot - sooo beautiful!!!!
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Post by diane on Feb 13, 2011 18:43:31 GMT -5
I can't in good conscience let this one go by. Sandra, are you saying that Maddie made a logical decision to sleep with Sam that night? That she did a typical Maddie think it over, weigh the pros and cons, examine the motives, consider the results?
I am not inferring that Maddie was consciously spontaneous either -- I think she was overwhelmed! David was acting strangely all day, he interrupted her dinner, but wouldn't tell her why, he gets blitzed in front of her ex-boyfriend. I think by the time she got home,she was two parts confused, and one part mad. At the same point, she knows logically who and what Sam is...to her he is a good and successful guy....maybe even the poster boy for "what Maddie needs". But she also knows in her heart of hearts what David was trying to say to her, and she is just not sure at that point if she is ready to hear it yet.
I think when Sam made the move on her, she just didn't have the emotional strength to pull back. Sometimes, you just need some comforting. Sounds kind of crazy, but even the appearance of the bedroom does not suggest a fun sexual romp.....all the covers are neat, pillows where they should be....and when I see her lying in bed at the end of the episode, my impression is not only that she is not happy, but that she knows she has probably made a mistake. And it carries over to the next morning (and episode), when the little scene between her and Sam is clearly awkward.....I think if she had made a conscious decision, she would be much more self assured. Our Maddie has made both good and bad decisions.....but when she is sure of what she is doing, she stands up strong.....not the picture of the woman I see after her night with the spaceman!
Now David......he is a whole other matter....and I have gone on long enough in this post!
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 18:55:16 GMT -5
Well, I guess we'll never agree on some things, but that's okay. I agree with you about the first step question, but I still think anyone who is about to or expected to make a step wants and needs a little encouragement, at least a little hope his step won't lead him into total defeat. What about David's confusion? No point there? No, Sam wasn't just anyone to her, but I still think she slept with him because of the wrong reasons. With so many open question, with the most important question open, she just shouldn't have done that. I think she wanted to find out if she could ignite it with Sam, that would certainly have made it a lot easier for her. Understandable, yes. But it gives her a part of the responsibility, too. Of course, we'll never know, but, yes, it's my deepest true conviction that David would have confessed his love the previous night.
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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 19:00:58 GMT -5
Diane, just saw you post.
I can agree completely with everything you say. Probably I didn't explain myself clearly enough. No, I'm not saying it was a logical decision to do it with Sam, I just wanted to point out that everyone is responsible for their own actions and that IMO it's not fair to say David is responsible for her sleeping with Sam.
Great point you make, maybe she is not ready to hear what David has to say. Thanks, you just expressed my notions better than I could have.
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Post by diane on Feb 13, 2011 19:10:25 GMT -5
Thanks Sandra.....and I agree with one of your statements, and disagree with one. Every person is absolutely responsible for their own actions......but I also do think some of David's actions helped push Maddie into Sam's arms.
I guess it is not fair for me to be seeming to explain what I see as Maddie's side without giving my explanation of David that night....but it is going to have to wait till after I finish making dinner.
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