graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Nov 4, 2009 8:39:06 GMT -5
I have just finished an almost 8 hour conference call I have always been impressed with since's insight, empathy and compassion. However, her sitting through an EIGHT HOUR conference call places her TOLERANCE LEVEL in the Guiness Book of World Records. I hope you devised a plan for world peace, cold fusion or a cure for the common cold during that meeting....those are the ONLY things that could keep me on the phone for 8 straight hours! Well maybe some play talk with Cybill.....
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Nov 4, 2009 8:52:08 GMT -5
Unlike the rest of you, I did not feel utter disdain for Sam until this episode. Throughout the arc thus far I saw him as a reasonably good guy (gasp!), relatively harmless ( ), subtle manipulations notwithstanding. I am with you here. I thought the casting of Mark Harmon was absolutely perfect. Yeah, they could have just put some pretty boy in the role, but Harmon is an honest to goodness ACTOR who brought some real depth and realism to this role. Instead of a shallow two dimensional shell we had a supremely complex, multi-layered wonderful character to enjoy.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Nov 4, 2009 9:06:58 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the Final Facedown: how do you feel about the two slaps?I think the slaps are great......although they were certainly controversial when the episode originally aired. I kind of think that the slaps were Maddie's "barrage in the garage" so to speak. The guys had their chance to work their frustrations out during their tussle......I'm thinking she still had some frustrations to get rid of. I got tired of typing, but the stage directions for the slaps and kisses in the living room show an anger on Maddie's part......and then some real resistance to the kiss, with David being more of the aggressor. (I'll post it if anybody wants to see it). I am really glad, however, that they strayed from that and made it more of a cooperative effort.... I always took the slaps to be a "cleansing breath" for our two pals. Unlike a 40's movie, he couldn't return the favor, but his stoic response was even better. Maddie HAD to express her frustration over her lack of control in the situation, first verbally with Sam and now physically with Dave. And I like the way it went. The first slap was a surprise. With the second, Dave showed that he was willing to suffer, and even die for Maddie and the way he stopped the third was his way of saying..."OUCH THAT HURTS...CUT IT OUT!"
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Post by jpen on Nov 4, 2009 12:59:44 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the Final Facedown: how do you feel about the two slaps?I think the slaps are great......although they were certainly controversial when the episode originally aired. I kind of think that the slaps were Maddie's "barrage in the garage" so to speak. The guys had their chance to work their frustrations out during their tussle......I'm thinking she still had some frustrations to get rid of. I got tired of typing, but the stage directions for the slaps and kisses in the living room show an anger on Maddie's part......and then some real resistance to the kiss, with David being more of the aggressor. (I'll post it if anybody wants to see it). I am really glad, however, that they strayed from that and made it more of a cooperative effort.... I always took the slaps to be a "cleansing breath" for our two pals. Unlike a 40's movie, he couldn't return the favor, but his stoic response was even better. Maddie HAD to express her frustration over her lack of control in the situation, first verbally with Sam and now physically with Dave. And I like the way it went. The first slap was a surprise. With the second, Dave showed that he was willing to suffer, and even die for Maddie and the way he stopped the third was his way of saying..."OUCH THAT HURTS...CUT IT OUT!" Awesome, gray. It's funny--I had always felt like just one slap might have been enough. (I will never forget the reaction of my 12th grade English teacher, the day after the episode aired--she was horrified that their long-awaited sexual relationship would begin in violence.) But reading everyone's remarks, I can see how the writers would have felt that two slaps were necessary. It isn't hearts and flowers, but it sure is powerful! (That said, though, I'm glad they made the decision for Maddie to lean in and kiss him after David catches her wrist. Any more resistance on Maddie's part would have made me really uncomfortable.)
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Post by rose35 on Nov 4, 2009 13:33:38 GMT -5
OK...let's start...... 1. At the beginning of the episode, what do you think is the state of mind of each of the characters......Maddie....David....Sam? Oh boy 3 confused people for sure! 2. Does Sam believe Maddie's story about where she was the night before? Not fully no, Maddie wasnt lying about it all, but we know she left the house not for a case, but while out the escapes at Davids apt. lead them to the case. 3. I posted the original script scene at David's apartment. After reading this, there are a few questions: ~ Is Bruce's performance more effective the way it was aired or would you prefer it the way it was written? ~Does the scene as written change or support your original opinion about Sam? ~How does this written scene affect your understanding of David's reaction to Maddie the next morning? I always love to see more script info when we have it, sometimes it helps enlighten a scene better for you, sometimes it makes you wish they used a deleted scene and sometimes it makes you glad a scene was rewitten as we saw it on tv. Bruces performance is amazing, he always spoke great high volumes with his silence,it think it proved he was stronger in that way them Sam, ,we sure didnt want a shouting match between the 2 of them did we? But also it made David sit back and feel alittle bit like Sam was right but he would never admit it to Sam that maybe Sam was better for Maddie than our dear ole Dave. I'm glad they listened to Bruce's direction for his character in this scene, who knew Daivd better than Bruce! David has every right to be mad and demand answers after what he and Maddie shared in his APT that night. He probably felt like he was being played with and you know David doesnt like that,especially in matters of the heart. He should have came after her with what about what happened in my APT last night, the kiss? What was that all about? but no Dave clammed up.
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Post by jpen on Nov 4, 2009 13:38:22 GMT -5
8. I can't really dissect the final scenes...let's just talk about them.
Oh, boy, we could have a whole night's discussion just on the last 5 minutes of this episode! One thing I really love about this scene is how it brings Maddie and David's relationship full circle. In the course of their argument, both of them fall back on the original assumptions they each made about the other: on David's side, that Maddie is anti-fun and too concerned with the way things (and people) look (he even calls her a "bitch," just as he does in the first episode); on Maddie's side, that David is rude, crude, and only as deep as his limbo stance.
In the 2 1/2 years they have known each other, they have moved far beyond these initial presumptions, which is why it's so funny (and somehow perfect) that they bring them up here. It's almost as though each of them has run out of reasons why they shouldn't love the other...so they grab at all the old ammunition to keep the fight going.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 19:42:47 GMT -5
I have just finished an almost 8 hour conference call I have always been impressed with since's insight, empathy and compassion. However, her sitting through an EIGHT HOUR conference call places her TOLERANCE LEVEL in the Guiness Book of World Records. I hope you devised a plan for world peace, cold fusion or a cure for the common cold during that meeting....those are the ONLY things that could keep me on the phone for 8 straight hours! Well maybe some play talk with Cybill..... LOL, Gray you are as kind as you are wise! Honestly, that's a few times a week, I work from home so there are lots of conference calls. I've done three today...hopefully, we are helping to gear everyone who listens towards world peace through them. ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 19:45:57 GMT -5
I always took the slaps to be a "cleansing breath" for our two pals. Unlike a 40's movie, he couldn't return the favor, but his stoic response was even better. Maddie HAD to express her frustration over her lack of control in the situation, first verbally with Sam and now physically with Dave. And I like the way it went. The first slap was a surprise. With the second, Dave showed that he was willing to suffer, and even die for Maddie and the way he stopped the third was his way of saying..."OUCH THAT HURTS...CUT IT OUT!" It isn't hearts and flowers, but it sure is powerful! (That said, though, I'm glad they made the decision for Maddie to lean in and kiss him after David catches her wrist. Any more resistance on Maddie's part would have made me really uncomfortable.) I'm with you JPen, any resistance would have been alarming. That actually was not the time to resist and pretend, it was definitely "squat" or get off the pot time for Maddie & David.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 19:48:41 GMT -5
Unlike the rest of you, I did not feel utter disdain for Sam until this episode. Throughout the arc thus far I saw him as a reasonably good guy (gasp!), relatively harmless ( ), subtle manipulations notwithstanding. I am with you here. I thought the casting of Mark Harmon was absolutely perfect. Yeah, they could have just put some pretty boy in the role, but Harmon is an honest to goodness ACTOR who brought some real depth and realism to this role. Instead of a shallow two dimensional shell we had a supremely complex, multi-layered wonderful character to enjoy. I hear you both, Mark Harmon...fine, he obviously did his job well because he played the character that the 'essed love to hate: Yet the character himself reeked of sneakiness, though I was a teenager, I saw the manipulation displayed; nobody is that perfect!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 19:57:52 GMT -5
OK...let's start...... 1. At the beginning of the episode, what do you think is the state of mind of each of the characters......Maddie....David....Sam? Oh boy 3 confused people for sure! 2. Does Sam believe Maddie's story about where she was the night before? Not fully no, Maddie wasnt lying about it all, but we know she left the house not for a case, but while out the escapes at Davids apt. lead them to the case. 3. I posted the original script scene at David's apartment. After reading this, there are a few questions: ~ Is Bruce's performance more effective the way it was aired or would you prefer it the way it was written? ~Does the scene as written change or support your original opinion about Sam? ~How does this written scene affect your understanding of David's reaction to Maddie the next morning? I always love to see more script info when we have it, sometimes it helps enlighten a scene better for you, sometimes it makes you wish they used a deleted scene and sometimes it makes you glad a scene was rewitten as we saw it on tv. Bruces performance is amazing, he always spoke great high volumes with his silence,it think it proved he was stronger in that way them Sam, ,we sure didnt want a shouting match between the 2 of them did we? Yes Rose, some of the scripts I have makes me wonder how things would have changed if they would have added certain scenes. For instance, the scene when they were in the hallway and David asked Maddie if they should move in together; can't recall off hand the title of the episode...(probably due to sleep deprivation lol) Also, I don't know if I could have dealt with the apartment scene if Sam had put his hands on David by pushing him back onto the bed; as if superior to him. I think I would have required a new television after viewing that
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 20:04:57 GMT -5
~What's your reaction every time you hear "Be My Baby"? I want to slap the nearest standing man twice and then do a little glass breaking on the floor No but seriously, I just grin like crazy First off I would like to say... "Hi Missaddy", next I would like to congratulate you on this stellar response!!! Priceless and hella entertaining, what a visual!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Nov 4, 2009 20:07:47 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the Final Facedown: how do you feel about the two slaps?I think the slaps are great......although they were certainly controversial when the episode originally aired. I kind of think that the slaps were Maddie's "barrage in the garage" so to speak. The guys had their chance to work their frustrations out during their tussle......I'm thinking she still had some frustrations to get rid of. I got tired of typing, but the stage directions for the slaps and kisses in the living room show an anger on Maddie's part......and then some real resistance to the kiss, with David being more of the aggressor. (I'll post it if anybody wants to see it). I am really glad, however, that they strayed from that and made it more of a cooperative effort.... I always took the slaps to be a "cleansing breath" for our two pals. Unlike a 40's movie, he couldn't return the favor, but his stoic response was even better. Maddie HAD to express her frustration over her lack of control in the situation, first verbally with Sam and now physically with Dave. And I like the way it went. The first slap was a surprise. With the second, Dave showed that he was willing to suffer, and even die for Maddie and the way he stopped the third was his way of saying..."OUCH THAT HURTS...CUT IT OUT!" Anybody notice Diane offered to post more script? I'm just saying...um my vote Diane is yes~
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Post by lin212 on Nov 4, 2009 20:26:14 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the Final Facedown: how do you feel about the two slaps? Even though some criticized the violence of this scene back in the day, I think the two slaps are perfect. The tension and frustration between David and Maddie continue to build throughout the scene. It's part of the dance that they have been doing for 2-1/2 years, but this time it is spiraling out of control. I have often asked myself why Maddie followed David down the stairs that night. She told him to stay away and threatened him with bodily harm. Why didn't she just let him leave? I think she secretly wanted him to disregard her protests and sweep her off her feet. I am not saying that it was a conscious, deliberate thing, but just an uncontrollable desire. She continued to engage him from the stairs and into the living room. I think she was so freaked out at this point, that her only release was to smack him. I think she would have continued to slap him until she collapsed from exhaustion if he hadn't stopped her. One slap paints a different picture. It doesn't convey the depth of her emotion at this point.
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Post by lin212 on Nov 4, 2009 20:33:03 GMT -5
2. What did Maddie plan to do/hope to find in David's office before discovering the disaster within?
This is a great question, witness. Did she hope to channel David by sitting his chair? Did she think that sitting in his office would help her make a decision about Sam? Hmmmm...food for thought.
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 4, 2009 20:54:50 GMT -5
The last few scenes:
Overall, to me the writing is near perfect. However, since we have been discussing deleted scenes, I really wish I could have sat at the table with the writers to listen to them hash out reasons for deleting, changing, expanding, etc..
Love how they used Agnes and Maddie in the bar scene so that Maddie could do her thinking out loud with someone who would listen without judging.
I have never really been sold on the "goodbye grope". The way Maddie agonized over her decision to marry Sam was real to me, but that she would come back to Sam for a little goodbye whoopie seemed somewhat out of character. YES, I know this whole thing started with her wanting to find some stranger and get crazy...but by the time Sam came to town I always felt those feelings had mostly disappeared. Real life was staring her in the face and being reckless really had no place in her life agenda....or at least this seems to be a lesson she has learned.
I like how tempers flare between David and Maddie. Really it's what had to happen for these two to finally find some common ground. I do think David might have won Maddie over much quicker had he waited by the couch instead of in her bed. That was a little assuming on his part, but on the other hand so typical and really funny. Sort of like providing comic relief after Maddie's soliloquy on loving two men.
The slapping: Well, I've really only admitted this to one other person.... but when it first aired the slapping really upset me. I was 25 years old with a two year old all tucked in for the night. The TV was on and the VCR set. All week the commercials would play, working all ML fans into a frenzy! I just couldn't wait for them to be in each others arms, say I love you to each other...just be and look happy! When Maddie slapped David I gasped, cringed and then wiped tears away...happy tears, but still very disturbed that the TV character I loved and rooted for would resort to slapping at such a time like that!! What was it she told David in "The Man Who Cried Wife"? ..."I want nothing to do with a man who would strike his wife!" Of course, she slaps David in that episode as well...and in the pilot, I know. The slapping is part of her character and exemplifies her hot temper, but in "I Am Curious,..." it really bothered me!!
Now having said that, the scene has grown on me. I love it like everyone else. Maybe it's because I'm older and not so naive, but there will always be a part of me that wishes they had done that scene a little differently. Maybe just one slap!
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