graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Nov 10, 2009 21:37:25 GMT -5
7. As they wake up, Maddie asks David, "How are we gonna do this?" What does she mean? How do you think David is feeling in this scene?OK, I am treading in dangerous waters here, so I have to watch my step. Remember this show is over 20 years old. Maddie grew up in the 50's, long before the term Friends with Benefits was invented. Especially for her, now that David and she have bitten from the forbidden fruit, things are different and cannot be the same. At least when only the two of them are in the room. I think Maddie is trying to ask David to help her figure out a way ahead, by acting like they are still in the past...like it never happened. Dave is feeling just fine. Trust me. I'm not sure he is listening to a word she is saying...but boy does she look good saying it. Now where was I? ?
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Nov 10, 2009 21:39:42 GMT -5
Hey gang, sorry I gotta jump but I have to be in DC early tomorrow. I'll pop back on when I return. I leave you with this line a buddy of mine puts at the end of every email:
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read it in english, thank a veteran.
Bless you all for putting up with me.
Tony
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 21:53:54 GMT -5
Ok ....here I am to pick up my Maddie flag and wave it high!!!!
First, about the script......the script I have is hugely different from what aired.....lots of cuts and changes......more, I think, than I have observed from any other script to air comparison.
That said, I think I will work with the questions first, and then start to post some of the differences and enhancements from the script later......
1. In relation to the Kendall case, what do you believe are the “facts” that Maddie is struggling with in regards to her new relationship with David?
Maddie is struggling with a lot of things here. First, we have to remember, that in the space of several days (how many is debatable), there have been huge changes in her very ordered life.......to wit -- an old boyfriend resurfaces, sleeps with her a time or two, and asks her to marry him -- her partner becomes a drunken fool in front of this man, "playing can you top this?" and highlighting their differences greatly -- then David becomes an undeclared entrant in the "who gets Maddie?" sweepstakes -- then for the first time in two and a half years of sexual jousting, declares his "hatred' for her -- the spaceguy disappears-- David shows up in her bed, and they share a glorious night of much anticipated passion. And we are surprised that the woman ends up confused?
I truly believe, at this juncture, Maddie hasn't put all the facts together. Clearly she cares for David, or this would not upset her so. I know we have said before.....in spite of the fact that her life would point to the opposite, she seems socially inept, especially in personal'/romantic situations, and she ends up coming off icy and just plain wrong in so many of them. I truly think that many of the things she says that hurt David.....the pact, the running out of the bed first thing in the morning, the remarks that he is not the one she should be with......are all defensive, and said without thinking, and sorting out what she truly wants and needs.
But in her heart of hearts, I think she knows that the irresistible force and the immovable object never had a chance of escaping the inevitable.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 22:05:56 GMT -5
2. What are the “facts” that David considers most important in his new relationship with Maddie?
For David the facts are black and white.......green, and yellow, and blue...and every color of the rainbow! He is thrilled.....in his mind, he has the girl of his dreams.....he is happy, he is in love and all's right with the world.
That is why he is so confused with Maddie's reactions...he thinks they have overcome the worst and gotten to the best. He doesn't get why Maddie second guesses everything. One of my favorite lines is his response to Maddie's lament that she doesn't like being uncomfortable and embarassed......"so don't do it".
Her reactions make him unsure of himself again, which is the cause of some his lashing out.
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Post by lin212 on Nov 10, 2009 22:09:50 GMT -5
4. Why does Maddie give in to her feelings of “doing what they did” at the very end? Is it really a pact Maddie wants?
I think that David charms his way back in - no pun intended. Maddie's little smile before she leans in to kiss him seems to say it all. For this moment, she stops analyzing, rationalizing, justifying and strategizing - she just follows her heart and throws the pact out the window.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 22:11:02 GMT -5
3. Do you think Maddie needs to hear more from David than those three little words he supposedly said? If so, what?
I don't think so. I really don't think Maddie has any doubts about how David feels about her. Maddie's doubts are all about Maddie.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 22:16:04 GMT -5
4. Why does Maddie give in to her feelings of “doing what they did” at the very end? Is it really a pact Maddie wants?
The physical attraction that Maddie feels for David is very powerful, and I think it surprises her. He is a man in love with her, which is at the least very flattering. She loves him as well, and even though, through most of the episode, she is letting herself be led by her confusion, in the last scene, she lets her heart and her true feelings lead her.
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Post by lin212 on Nov 10, 2009 22:31:05 GMT -5
7. As they wake up, Maddie asks David, "How are we gonna do this?" What does she mean? How do you think David is feeling in this scene?
Here we see Maddie being Maddie. You can just imagine her waking up that morning...thinking....and thinking....and thinking even more. Although we would have hoped that the events of the past few days would have proven to her that she needed to think less and feel more, you can see her trying to figure out how this new dynamic with David was going to work. She has not had many relationships, so her experience is fairly limited. Couple that with the fact that she and David work together, that she is the "boss" and that she can be a little prudish at times. Panic begins to set in and she has to gain control of the situation.
David, on the other hand, is in heaven. All is well with the world. He is the happiest he has ever been.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 22:36:53 GMT -5
Why this case for this episode? And what do you think is the significance of the twist in Moonlighting's version: that Robert genuinely loves Margaret?
I have to admit, I have never seen "The Heiress", so I can't really speak to the twist. But I just adore the Kendall case. It's a real "Love Conquers All" story, and I think its purpose is to show M&D...particularly Maddie....how easy love can be, and how most objections amount to nothing when you are dealing with love.
I love the scene when Margaret comes into the office.....she enters, small and unsure, feeling insignificant, sitting far away....but, when she starts to speak about Robert, she blossoms...she rises, she comes closer to M&D....she truly glows with her love for him. And the effect she has on M&D is impactful (I love what a great job Bruce and Cybill do in this scene without saying a word).
I love Mr. Kendall's description of his daughter.......disdaining that she is spontaneous, and having no sense of the practical effects of her decisions. And in spite of the fact that his commentary should lead Maddie to side with him, I love that she seems to defend Margaret (and it is even moreso in the script, as you will see). I believe it is more than just respecting the privacy of a client that upsets Maddie and makes her send Mr. Kendall packing.
I love "Have you ever seen a love expressed so eloquently?" when Robert and Margaret each try to take the blame for the other. I kept getting little twinges of "The Gift of the Magi" in their love story.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 22:48:17 GMT -5
6. Pope's "Essay" is actually a long poem, written in heroic couplets, that is a kind of mini-advice manual for prospective literary critics. He says that bad criticism is worse, and more prevalent, than bad poetry: "Ten censure wrong for one who Writes amiss."
a) With reference to the episode title line...who is doing the erring? Who does (or should) forgive?
b) The poem also features the following well-known lines:
"A little Learning is a dangerous Thing"and "For Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread"
I have always thought that the title was not so much about one or the other 'erring"...but that Maddie should give herself a break, and not be afraid to "err"....it will make her more human.
I love the idea of the Fools Rush In reference.....although I think it is coincidental , the Johnny Mercer ballad, "Fools Rush In (where angels fear to tread) seems very apropos to this episode.
Here are the lyrics:
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread And so I come to you my love, my heart above my head
Though I see the danger there If there's a chance for me, then I don't care
Fools rush in where wise men never go But wise men never fall in love, so how are they to know
When we met, I felt my life begin So open up your heart and let this fool rush in
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 10, 2009 22:51:16 GMT -5
I love Mr. Kendall's description of his daughter.......disdaining that she is spontaneous, and having no sense of the practical effects of her decisions. And in spite of the fact that his commentary should lead Maddie to side with him, I love that she seems to defend Margaret (and it is even moreso in the script, as you will see). I believe it is more than just respecting the privacy of a client that upsets Maddie and makes her send Mr. Kendall packing. diane
This was really the first time I listened closely to what Mr. Kendall was saying and was really sort of blown away with the clever writing.
I found myself this time comparing him to Maddie's father and it has made me wonder if Maddie, in her confusion and her effort to sort her feelings, thought about what Mr. Hayes would think of her and David being more than business partners.
I think she would still seek her parents approval, even at 36 years old, but especially her father's.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 23:00:24 GMT -5
. As they wake up, Maddie asks David, "How are we gonna do this?" What does she mean? How do you think David is feeling in this scene?
I think Maddie is a bit embarrassed, and shaken to the core. She actually expresses her feelings best after their second "encounter' when she says..."This is not the way I live my life". When she lets go...sexually, emotionally...whatever....I think the depth of her feelings and her subsequent actions both scare and embarrass her.
She can't wait to get out of that bed, and into the shower.....in fact, I love the scene when she is sitting in the bathroom, clearly not taking a shower, and you just know she HAD to get out of that bed!
David is happy, satiated...and then his world turns around and he gets dropped on his head. Is befuddled the right word?
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 23:05:05 GMT -5
8. In David's apartment, Maddie tells him twice that she's not trying to hurt him, and yet she says some hurtful things. What is driving her here?
I think the apres bed scene in David's apartment is another slap fest, without the slaps.
David has knocked Maddie off her pins again.....and when she is insecure, and out of control (yes, Gray is right!), she fights to get back to herself....and she doesn't always fight nice.
I definitely don't think she means to be a b...., but she is distraught.......and then David gives it back and they fuel each other's fires.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 23:11:27 GMT -5
9. At the end of the episode, David says to Maddie, "Y'know, I really think it's OK that those two kids ride off into the sunset together. But you and me...we're different." Do you think he really believes this?
I do think he believes it...and you know what? So do I. I think theirs is an unusual and uncommon love.....and I do beleive if they remained together, their lives would never be dull.
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Post by diane on Nov 10, 2009 23:19:41 GMT -5
8. In David's apartment, Maddie tells him twice that she's not trying to hurt him, and yet she says some hurtful things. What is driving her here?I think she is trying to assert her superiority in the relationship, as it were. That David is just going to have to acquiesce to her every whim, desire or demand, if he wants any shot at maintaining anything at all. What do you think of the way Dave is holding the sheet in this scene when Maddie comes out of the bathroom? Classic, eh? Oh gray...really? I guess you are proven right in that seems to be the way the season 4 episodes are written. But I really don't feel she is holding him up....I think she is just a mess!
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