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Post by beesnbears on Aug 31, 2010 19:20:57 GMT -5
Hope no one minds that I kick off tonight. If someone else had bigger and better plans please let me know and I'll delete this! As before, feel free to add questions of your own. 1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not? 2. In light of the small recurring theme of desperation, how do you see Maddie? What about David? 3. Anyone want to take a stab as to why the play on Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nacht Music"? ......oh, okay, this can be a bonus question....
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Post by rose35 on Aug 31, 2010 19:23:18 GMT -5
Hope no one minds that I kick off tonight. If someone else had bigger and better plans please let me know and I'll delete this! As before, feel free to add questions of your own. 1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not? 2. In light of the small recurring theme of desperation, how do you see Maddie? What about David? 3. Anyone want to take a stab as to why the play on Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nacht Music"? ......oh, okay, this can be a bonus question.... Oh wow thanks! I just got home from Back To School night and have to get my boys ready for bed now and saw no one started the thread off and was going to do that now but you just beat me too it! So thanks so much! Hope to see some posts here later!
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
Posts: 210
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Post by 1987 on Aug 31, 2010 20:15:06 GMT -5
1. I think at this point late Season 5 David (whom we should just call Fred) wants to try and get over Maddie so much. I don't think he starts dating her intentionally to hurt Maddie but Annie's obviously not hard to get and does keep him somewhat close to Maddie. I never felt like he loved her but rather she was a distraction from his constantly conflicted feelings towards Maddie. Since Maddie keeps rebuffing him, he very much wants to move on but can't.
2. All I kept getting from Maddie is a feeling of regret and denial. Denial that she still loves David and major regret for Chicago, Walter and the baby not working out for them. The only one I feel is desperate is David. Desperate and almost manic about keeping things going strong with Annie while also keeping an eye on Donagen. This line at the beginning of the episode sticks with me. He says to Maddie: "Intellectually you know it's over between us, but visually you can't stand to see me in the arms of another woman". I don't know what to make of this. I both like this line and hate it. I like it because thats obviously not a line that would come from someone who didn't still have feelings for someone else. I hate it for obvious reasons. I don't think any sane writer would have made this the last conversation they had in his office. Surely they meant to explore this a little more but ran out of time.... Oh well.
3. I have no idea. I never understood the title of the episode - figured that too would disappoint me.
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Post by lin212 on Aug 31, 2010 20:33:40 GMT -5
Evening, all. Thanks for starting us off, bees.
1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not?
No. As I re-watched this episode, I was struck by how superficial David and Annie's relationship seems to be. It's all about stupid jokes, sex, and not getting serious about anything. Even the way he relates to Annie is so different...the tone of his voice, his facial expressions...just seems like a fling to me. At the very end of the episode, after Maddie's house is destroyed, Maddie thanks David for watching out for her. He responds that it's what partners do. Maddie replies, "Partners, huh?" David looks at her in a way that he NEVER looks at Annie. The love runs deep. He still has not gotten Maddie out of his system. Annie is just a distraction, a way to get under Maddie's skin.
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Post by lin212 on Aug 31, 2010 20:40:21 GMT -5
2. In light of the small recurring theme of desperation, how do you see Maddie? What about David?
I do not see Maddie as desperate at this point. She seems to have accepted David and Annie's relationship and seems genuinely concerned that Annie is going to get hurt.
David, on the other hand, seems to be the desperate one. Maddie has backed off, apologized, and is spending a lot of time with the detective. She appears to no longer care what David does. I think her indifference is making him a little crazy.
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Post by lin212 on Aug 31, 2010 20:45:26 GMT -5
Here's a little question for you all.
Why do you think David crashes Maddie's and Annie's lunch date? Do you think that he really cares what Maddie is telling Annie or do you think that he just wants to pick a fight with Maddie to keep the flames burning?
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Post by beesnbears on Aug 31, 2010 21:12:56 GMT -5
2. In light of the small recurring theme of desperation, how do you see Maddie? What about David? I do not see Maddie as desperate at this point. She seems to have accepted David and Annie's relationship and seems genuinely concerned that Annie is going to get hurt. David, on the other hand, seems to be the desperate one. Maddie has backed off, apologized, and is spending a lot of time with the detective. She appears to no longer care what David does. I think her indifference is making him a little crazy. I think her indifference makes me crazy. Very well put, lin212. Forget the season 5 writers and the various reasons they had for some choices they made. The way they treat each other in this particular Annie ep just twists me up. I really can barely stomach it...so I throw things.... And the irony of it all is it's Annie pointing out to David that something is still amiss between them, that he needs to apologize to Maddie, that she doesn't like being in the middle of whatever it is they have between them. And David knows she's right. But, when David goes to Maddie under the premise of the Anselmo case, Maddie doesn't even let him in her house. Ouch! And then she calls him desperate.....ouchie!
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Post by beesnbears on Aug 31, 2010 21:25:17 GMT -5
Here's a little question for you all. Why do you think David crashes Maddie's and Annie's lunch date? Do you think that he really cares what Maddie is telling Annie or do you think that he just wants to pick a fight with Maddie to keep the flames burning? The whole situation is driving him nuts and there is no way he is going to let Maddie get the upper hand. He's not going to let her control his involvement with Annie. So in that sense I think he does care what Maddie tells Annie.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2010 5:28:32 GMT -5
Hi everybody! Great questions, thank you all! 1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not? The answer is NO! I re-watched the episode, then I re-watched it once again (it almost killed me of course ) and now I'm sure: David is not looking for a long term relationship in Annie. I think he is not looking for anything in her. He just needs something, someone to be distracted from his feelings, his real feelings! Nothing about David and Annie is right. She is a mere replacement, and I think David knows it, he just doesn't want to admit it
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2010 10:15:54 GMT -5
Hi everybody! Great questions, thank you all! 1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not? The answer is NO! I re-watched the episode, then I re-watched it once again (it almost killed me of course ) and now I'm sure: David is not looking for a long term relationship in Annie. I think he is not looking for anything in her. He just needs something, someone to be distracted from his feelings, his real feelings! Nothing about David and Annie is right. She is a mere replacement, and I think David knows it, he just doesn't want to admit it I'm totally agree with you, goldilocks!
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Post by jpen on Sept 1, 2010 14:15:01 GMT -5
OK, I'll take a stab at the bonus question first...this might be a stretch, but here goes:
The title of Steven Sondheim's play "A Little Night Music" is a literal translation of Mozart's sonata title. "Night Music" tells the story of Fredrik and Desiree, former lovers who are now less-than-satisfied with their current partners. Fredrik has married a much younger trophy wife (child bride, really), and Desiree is having an affair with a married Count. Desiree sings "Send in the Clowns," a song redolent of loss, regret, and missed opportunities--pretty appropriate for this episode:
Isn't it rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, You in mid-air. Send in the clowns.
Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, One who can't move. Where are the clowns? Send in the clowns.
Just when I'd stopped opening doors, Finally knowing the one that I wanted was yours, Making my entrance again with my usual flair, Sure of my lines, No one is there.
Don't you love farce? My fault I fear. I thought that you'd want what I want. Sorry, my dear. But where are the clowns? Quick, send in the clowns. Don't bother, they're here.
Isn't it rich? Isn't it queer, Losing my timing this late In my career? And where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Well, maybe next year.
(Not incidentally, this is also the song Maddie and David dance to in the Laundromat.)
By the end of the play, Fredrik's wife has run off with his son, and Desiree and Fredrik realize they still love each other...
...which brings me to a question (and please forgive the speculation)--do you think we are still supposed to cherish any hope that David and Maddie will eventually be together?
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2010 15:32:45 GMT -5
Wow! It is amazing, jpen! Thank you for this information! I had no idea why the episode is called this way, now after you explained all these it makes sense! I am really impressed!
Back to your question: --do you think we are still supposed to cherish any hope that David and Maddie will eventually be together?
I never gave up this hope and I never will! For me they stayed together. I never thought about them any other way. Such love can't go away. Maybe they never got married, but they stayed together. I think)
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 1, 2010 16:03:50 GMT -5
Considering some of the other title and music choices they went with over the series, I don't think this is too much of a stretch. I mean, they did do a little Shakespeare, too, right? For them to refer to a very popular Mozart piece as well as a popular Broadway musical from the early 70's does make a lot of sense.
A musical that has one of the most well known songs in "Send in the Clowns", whose lyrics are rich with missed opportunity and regret.
You get the bonus bucks, jpen!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 2, 2010 18:35:58 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't make it on Tuesday folks, but I wuz, er busy. Before I get to the questions, I'd like to parrot something I put down on the original rate this episode thread in that, in this episode, I felt uncomfortable with all of the major players. I was ticked that David was still playing house with is partners MARRIED cousin. I was dismayed how Maddie out and out LIED to keep the charade a secret from Annie's husband. I was sickened by Annie's inability to REALLY see the hurt she was doing to Maddie by inserting herself between her and David. Man, in this episode I really didn't care for ANY of them. For a show that was based on the viewer's liking the characters, it was a death knell. This episode so perplexed me I didn't have the energy to make an avatar.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 2, 2010 18:40:29 GMT -5
1. Do you believe David is looking for a long term relationship in Annie? Why or why not?
Ah hell, I can't figure out exactly WHAT David wants or needs. This entire affair just gives me indigestion.
2. In light of the small recurring theme of desperation, how do you see Maddie? What about David?
Actually I agree in that Maddie isn't the desperate one. She seems to have the most level head of them all. She is working hard, come to grips with the loss of the baby and is rather calm in the face of significant danger. She even treats her potential romance with the flatfoot in a careful manner. David is so desperate he can't even find fruit from other than the Hayes tree.
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