"I ain't a bad guy either"

[honeyblondenoggin]

Kind of ironic to title this post about Maddie using a quote from David, but somehow I think it fits.

Upon perusing these threads, it has been commented on that (and I'm paraphrasing and interpreting, not quoting anyone in particular) that David is the good guy, he wears his heart on his sleeve, he is more open and outward about his affection and Maddie is often characterized as the cold, icy b-word.

No denying that she can be, but as I watched "All Creatures Great…and Not So Great" and "Big Man on Mulberry Street" back-to-back a few nights ago, I had forgotten just how much Maddie bears HER soul. In "All Creatures," her monologues in the confessional with the priest and with David in the office in the evening, she is, for her, putting her heart on her sleeve. Shame they were both asleep, especially David. She THOUGHT she had an audience (and not just us ) when she spoke about her feelings.

In "All Creatures," she tells the priest how there was just something about him, but how they were so different and they had to stop beating each other up about it (me thinks there is something familiar about that sentiment – the dialogue was very similar to Maddie's speech in "Maddie Hayes Got Married"). And in the office at night, when Maddie tells David how he is also the closest person to her in LA, and that she would turn to him when push came to shove, or even before push came to shove.

In "Mulberry Street," of course, her actions (flying to NYC, meeting up with Tess, wanting to borrow half a shoulder) and her words (the speech in the hotel room) speak VOLUMES about her feelings as well.

We get sidetracked from "normal" D&M interaction for the next four episodes (Shakespeare, Wonderful Job, Straight Poop and Poltergeist III…), but when we get back to the business of David and Maddie in Blonde on Blonde, my interpretation is that she either suppresses or doesn't recognize her affection/love for David that she seemed to begin to realize earlier in the season and interprets them as her "chastity belt pinching her." And the madness ensues from there.

But I never realized until watching these two shows back-to-back that Maddie DOES indeed reveal a bit of her feelings, too. She's not so frosty, in fact, she's burnin' up over here.

And, as a side note, in season five, I think SHE has more affection for David than he has for her. IMHO, David has lost some of that lovin' feelin' for her (not totally, mind you, but it's not as raw of an emotion as it was when he told Mr. Hayes that he'd give up his life for her).

Just a newbie's observations. What does everyone else think? Do you think Maddie's not such a bad guy? Does she love David as much as everyone talks about David loving her? Like I said, I just noticed these things about Maddie and I am wondering if it's just me.

[haddie mayes]

Great title honeyblondenoggin.
I don`t think that Maddie was ever the `badguy`either too. Maddie had tremendous depth and sensitivity.
I just think that she was very stubborn coupled with insecurities .
She would never be pushed into showing her true softer side , she only let her guard down when she was ready and felt safe!

Maybe that was a deliberate choice by Glenn and his writers.You have to imagine that being a former model and always jetting from here to there doing photo shoots she probably never got that close to the people she worked with ( we all know how b**chy the fashion industry can be)So i reckon that after all those years she would have found it very hard to open up to people. Never mind admitting to herself or David that she had feelings for him.But as honey.... said there were small pockets of emotion.

Now we all saw the dramatic change in the seasons 4 & 5 Maddie, now even though they both were losing touch with their original personalities i supposed time and situations change us all ( i`m not the same person i was 8/9 years ago ) Maybe ( and i`m not trying to defend or blame the writers ) something as huge as losing a baby close to full term can and does have a life changing affect .
Now i know that doesn`t explain our season 4 Maddie but like i said at the begining This running away and not allowing David to call her kept her in control , she didn`t want David pushing her into making her mind up . thinking that you maybe pregnant by somebody that you work with must really mess your head up.
So i can forgive the writers for making Maddie do that to David because it kinda makes sense . The one thing that i can`t get my head round though is the fact that the writers/Glenn have Maddie chasing and goading David into confessing his love for her and we also see Maddies realisation of love for David but then we have this complete u-turn of emotion , Maddie had no reason to do this because there was no need to hide her feelings for David any more, they had both made their true feelings very clear over the past few weeks ;D
It makes you wonder how many women writers there were because i can`t see how any man could understand a women`s complex mind .Sorry to be sexist but men find it hard to read our minds just as much as we find it hard to read theirs.

Heres a thought maybe if there had been more women writers on the show things might have been done a little different. Guess we`ll never know

[bluemooner]

honeyblonde, that is too funny that you just watched these two episodes back to back, as i did the same last week. and, i thought exactly the same thing...you can really really feel maddie falling in love with david and admitting it. too bad he was asleep at the end of creatures, but her speeches in both episodes are wonderful. i'm glad we got to hear them. i totally agree with you guys, maddie is definitely not a bad guy. i think that's why we all love her. she does not like to show her vulnerabilty and neither does david. we all know she has a soft side and so does david. i've always thought the same thin about season 5's maddie too, she definitely seems more smitten with david than he does with her. she even said, i" love you david," more recently than he did (MHGM/season 4 i know, but it was late). i love that scene btw, i really believe cybill when she says it. (i think she is underrated as an actress and should have won an emmy, but that's another story). even when you see maddie talk to A#%$&E (in Eine) remembering her nights with david, you sense her feelings for him are still there. That's why LE is sooo frustrating, but i'm not gonna go there.

[diane]

Honeyblonde, be glad you were not around in the days of the "Maddie bashers".......there were some people who just delighted in ripping the character to shreds at every opportunity.

I think Maddie was a glorious example of the career woman of the 80's.... always conflicted about what and where she wanted to be in life. Back then, the world was telling us that our self worth was found in our careers....and that all else could be put off until we achieved career satisfaction. And we all knew that a woman in the business world had to work longer and harder than a man to achieve that success.

So when Maddie sometimes seemed more serious and inflexible, I look back to the world as it was to help explain why. But there are wonderful moments that her character shows her heart of gold....and those moments are beautiful both inside and out -- drop dead gorgeous!

There are some holes in who she became in the 4th and 5th seasons....and we can blame some on the writers....but bottom line, the character was as she was...and we have to try and make sense out of the inconsistencies. When we started to write Virtual, we all thought long and hard about making Maddie more understandable......without losing the sense of what made her Maddie. I think we did a fairly decent job....hope some of you do too.

I do have to say...while sometimes I got a little perturbed at Maddie....I never got truly angry at her, as I did at David in season 5. Maybe it's a girl thing.

P.S. If you love Maddie in those two episodes, take another peek at one of my favorites.....Atlas Belched..... and see how sweet she is when she realizes what David really means to her.

[honeyblondenoggin]

Diane ~ First of all, you're THAT Diane? Diane of the season 3 episode fan commentary? Diane of the Virtual Moonlighting fame? I should have known that, but wow, cool, nice to meet you! Now I see why you made the comment you did on my question on the Virtual Moonlighting thread, you're the head writer! I know I'm begging, but please oh please oh please finish that season 9 episode!! I'm dying' over here!! No, in all seriousness, I totally understand that you and the other writers have real lives that take priority over stuff like that. But I really, really have enjoyed reading it, it's the best fan fic out there because you guys really DID capture the characters' essences. It really does feel like an extension of the real show. In fact, you guys did a better job of staying true to the characters than the "real" writers did at the end! Maybe you should write a reunion show and send it to Glenn, since HE can't seem to come up with any ideas!

OK, I digress. I just wanted to comment on your statement:

I think Maddie was a glorious example of the career woman of the 80's.... always conflicted about what and where she wanted to be in life. Back then, the world was telling us that our self worth was found in our careers....and that all else could be put off until we achieved career satisfaction

I am a product of that time period, and you are so right, that is exactly what was preached to girls. I'm not complaining, that's better than being told all you could do was stay home and be barefoot and pregnant, but there was no middle ground back then. And now me, and a whole bunch of women my age, are struggling with this notion! But that is why I think (one of many reasons) that David is so popular. I guess he's at least fairly successful. But he has tons of fun doing it, too. That's why people gravitate towards him and maybe away from Maddie. Who would you rather hang with, the fun-loving devil may care guy? Or the uptight white chick?

Got a little off topic here, sorry.

Laura ~ I can remember one of the writers was a woman, Debra Frank. She must not have written those later season episodes

bluemooner ~ You're right about Cybill and the Emmy. And you guys all make me laugh when you speak about "who shall not be named." I have hated her ever since she "stole" David away. No matter what she's in, I hate it. I feel bad, not the actress' fault, but I see her and she makes me mad

[davnee]

I was a Maddie supporter back then and remain so today. Yes, she could be a little too cold and reserved at times, but I always hated the way she was demonized for wanting to run a successful business. I think the show indulged too much in David's point of view at times. I guess it was easier to make fun of a woman for being uptight than to make fun of a man for being irreverent. But, then again, it has got to be the uptight one that takes the blows in order to get the explosions of passion. Wouldn't work so well in reverse. And Maddie did get her moments of vindication from time to time. So the skewed, somewhat anti-feminist, point of view was never a huge problem for me until the end of the 3rd season and into the 4th season. Then it appeared that all the garbage of the show's problems were going to be laid at Maddie's feet. David became the love-sick martyr who was perpetually suffering at the hands of the cold and uncaring shrew. I'm totally convinced that there was an element of GGC punishing Cybill for being an uppity, difficult woman at work in the storyline choices made in the 4th season. I mean there is almost glee on her face when she tells David she got married after he's pined over her for months for heaven's sakes. I have no doubts that Cybill was a difficult diva and no innocent party in the implosion of Moonlighting. But it always disappointed me tremendously that all that resentment of the actress was translated into the destruction of her character. Anyway, I much prefer the explanation of a loss of professional detachment by GGC to explain Maddie's devolution into complete shrew to the explanation of a simple lack of respect for women as professionals any day. The latter is much more disheartening.

[beesnbears]

If you enjoy fan fiction go to fan fiction.net and read the story "Maddie's Diary" by Dana. This gives some fun insight into maybe how and why Maddie became a "thinker" and maybe as to why she did some of the things she did. (Even though keep in mind the "real" ML did not write this.....makes you wonder though why GGC or someone did not think to do this in S4)

I believe Cybill did such an outstanding job playing this role and that this is why the group Diane refers to as the "Maddie Bashers" came about. I also think many do not realize that she played "the straight man" against Bruce. Can't be an easy thing to do and I think she was certainly overlooked for an Emmy. She so deserved one!!

But what also contributed to the "basher group" is the writers development of her character at the end of S4 and all of S5. Intentional or otherwise.........they should have called Diane and the Virtual Moonlighting crew because they did not have a clue, a clue, a clue as to character development after say around Tracks of My Tears. They certainly had chances to recover from mistakes and could have made S5 end in great Moonlighting tradition.

It is all very puzzling, isn't it?

And by the way.......Diane---I don't even know you....but YOU ROCK!!! Thanks for keeping the board clean so we can continue to talk about the classiest show ever with great enjoyment!!

[maddieaddisonjr]

davnee said:

Then it appeared that all the garbage of the show's problems were going to be laid at Maddie's feet. David became the love-sick martyr who was perpetually suffering at the hands of the cold and uncaring shrew

I agree with your whole post, davnee. This wasn't the David/Maddie dynamic we all knew and loved. Now I didn't mind Moonlighting becoming a soap opera for a while because frankly they were heading for an emotional showdown ever since "The Next Murder You Hear" But to make David the complete martyr/hero and Maddie the unfeeling villainess was just too polarizing.

As much as I enjoy David's antics on the screen, I wouldn't want to work with someone like that every day. Over half the time Maddie was in the right during their heated exchanges I think. I'm glad there are so many charming, sweet and funny moments between them that we can now enjoy over and over and skip whatever we don't like.