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Post by davidsmaddie on Sept 7, 2007 8:42:25 GMT -5
In the scene where Maddie tells David she wants to be reckless, Maddie says "your jaw wouldn't be on the floor if this were Viola or Magilicutty you were having this conversation with " David acts more angry than shocked. It always bothered me that the converstaion takes on a a more aurgumenative tone than a frustrated one. Maybe she is embarrassed...
or do you think in a small way it could have been an invitation to David to "solve her problem" and when he didn't, she got upset?
Just wondering cause the anger that sudden popped up always has bothered me.
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Sept 7, 2007 9:56:25 GMT -5
I think that you are partially correct, though, in typical Maddie fashion, if he took her up on and tried to solve her problem, would she have refused his advances??? Maybe.
I think that she *was* feeling her chastity belt pinching her, though she was mentally not allowing herself to see that the problem is that she wanted David. And he was badgering her to open up to him and she relented. So when David freaked out on her, she was truly embarrassed, that she confided in him and he got all upset. Maddie retreated into her cold, icy shell.
David's reaction here is what I think is so interesting. In a weird way, I don't think he viewed Maddie's problem as Maddie trying to reach out to David to advance their relationship beyond platonic. Maybe because Maddie, on the surface, didn't realize her feelings for David and mistook them as merely a "need" to be fulfilled. So when David gets all angry, it's because he is hurt that, to him, Maddie's looking for a one-night-stand, and for once, David isn't. He has allowed this woman to get under his skin in a way no other woman has, and her speech about "wanting to be bad and not even knowing his name" really wounds David. He so desperately wants to be with her, and not just to get "horizonty."
So, no, of course David doesn't react to Maddie the way he would if Viola came into his office complaining about the same itch needing to be scratched. But Maddie is wrong, it has nothing to do with the goose and the gander (gender differences), it has to do that David is further along in his recognition of his feelings, and is hurt that Maddie isn't in the same place he is.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 7, 2007 13:44:05 GMT -5
Gotta back up Honeyblonde on this one (it seems to be a trend).
I remember when I first saw this scene on ABC. I absolutely was flabbergasted at this strange turn of events. Dear Old Dave's reaction was EXACTLY the way I was feeling at the time.
Here's Dave, trying to be supportive, wanting to hear what is bugging Maddie, only to hear her say she wants to go get her groove on, not with our long suffering pal, but with some anonymous dude. Yeeow! I think that Dave's reaction was absolutely defensive in nature. Despite his ability to think on his feet, this revelation was SO FAR out of the ballpark he had no retort, no comeback, no witty reply other than what he gave.
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Post by callmeditzy on Sept 28, 2008 10:57:46 GMT -5
I'm with you, honeyblondenoggin. I've been watching these "trilogy" episodes recently and thinking about where David and Maddie each were in relation to the developement of their feelings for each other and their own recognition of those feelings. Here's what I've been thinking:
Thinking about the “real” episodes leading up this one, Maddie’s feelings for David are the strongest they’ve ever been. She won’t admit to herself yet that she’s in love with him, but she cared about him enough to follow him to New York to be by his side during his brother-in-law’s funeral. That, in itself, was an impulsive, spontaneous act – making the plane reservation in the middle of the night – completely out of character for her. And it paid off. In spite of the fact that he couldn’t bring himself to take her to the funeral, she was glad she went, and pleased by the dynamic between them on the plane ride home. The expression on her face as she looked up at him while she rested her head on his shoulder said wonders: she was realizing how much more there was to him than she knew and allowing herself to consider the possibility of spending the “next twenty or thirty years” with him. By the beginning of this episode, Maddie is feeling the pull of that side of her – the side that can be impulsive and spontaneous. What I don’t think she realizes, though, is that it’s David that inspires that in her. She equates David with passion and recklessness and, subconsciously, she’s confusing and substituting her desire for David (which she’s afraid to admit to herself) with a desire to “be reckless”. I think it’s all about him. She’s tired of being so controlled all the time (denying her feelings for David), has enjoyed the tastes of fun and spontenaity she’s had (with David), and wants to indulge that side of her in a big way (give in to her feelings for David). Of course, I don’t think she’s conscious of any of this, as she still can’t admit to herself that she loves him. For the record, I also don’t think her feelings were all about her need for sexual gratification – it was all about her need to let her impulsive, passionate side out.
At this point, David has not said out loud, even to himself, that he’s in love with Maddie. He won’t get there until the end of this episode. I think he knows that he wants her physically and that, even with all the aggravation she brings him, he thrives on having her around and can’t imagine his life without her. I think he suspects he loves her, but won’t admit it to himself because he’s not completely sure (she does make him crazy at least half of the time, after all!) and he’s afraid she won’t want to be with him. On the other hand, I also think he suspects that she does have feeling for him. I think he believes, as the audience does by now, that there’s a mutual, unspoken understanding between them that their relationship, however undefined, is very close and goes beyond mere friendship. I think he knows, as the audience does, that it’s only a matter of time before one of them (Maddie, he hopes!) makes the first move. This is where he is when the episode opens. He can see Maddie’s upset and he is very genuinely concerned for her. This might be among the most sincere we’ve seen him. He doesn’t make jokes or make light of her “blues” because they’re closer than that now. He can admit he cares about her, as a friend if nothing else. But when she talks about wanting to go out and sleep with some strange man, he feels blindsided. Right at the moment when he’s being so sincere and as open as he can be (up to this point) about his love for her, she tells him she wants to have sex with another man – any other man! He’s trying to be there for her emotionally, and instead of taking comfort from his support, she wants to turn away from him and find comfort in the arms of a stranger. I think there is an element of not wanting to think of Maddie doing something seedy, when part of what he loves about her is now classy and elegant she is, and there’s certainly a healthy dose of some good, old-fashioned jealousy, but I think it goes deeper than that. He feels like he and Maddie have been moving toward something and, with this declaration from Maddie, he feels like that movement has come to a screeching halt. At the very least, he feels like their relationship is in a closer place than it’s ever been and he’s enjoying that. Maybe he isn’t ready for forward movement yet, but is very pleased with the way things are between them now, with their unspoken bond and promise of possibility. How can she think about getting it on with some strange guy when they’re so obviously in the middle of a years-long mating dance? And how can she feel comfortable telling him about it? Doesn’t she know what’s going on between them? That’s what I think he means when he says she’s “damn right he wouldn’t” be so upset if she were MacGillicudy or Viola. It’s not a double-standard about her being a woman and them being men. It’s that she’s the woman he cares about most in the world and he’s got “something” developing with, while the other two are just two co-workers in whom he has nothing invested emotionally. Of course he doesn’t care who they sleep with.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 28, 2008 12:23:03 GMT -5
I am in the honeyblonde camp on this one as well. I never thought that David was holding a double standard that night. This is the first time that we not only see but can really feel his concern (or love?) for Maddie and her little piece of news on her mood decks him.
Who cares about Viola and the rest..........She wants a complete stranger.........how can She not see that it should be Him........
Good post ditzy!!
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Post by rose35 on Sept 28, 2008 15:13:58 GMT -5
Yes good post Callmeditzy! I so enjoy all these posts on our views on these episodes. I agree on how the relastionship was turning at this point thats why it's so hard to swallow the 360 Maddies does in THH. Makes no sense!
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Post by jpen on Feb 11, 2009 0:51:38 GMT -5
Ditzy, great post--you've said it all, I think. I never believed it was a double standard either--just, as you said, David reacting not to a woman, but the woman...the woman he's starting to realize is THE ONE. Not to sound teacherish or anything, but I've always found it funny that Maddie's comment has it backwards. She said, "What's good for the goose is forbidden for the gander." The goose is the female of the species, the gander is the male...so it should be "What's good for the gander is forbidden for the goose." I wonder whether this was just a mistake on the writers' part, or whether somehow the goof was purposeful, if it somehow has a deeper meaning...or if it's just indicative of Maddie's confusion at that point in the conversation. Ah, the mysteries of ML!
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
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Post by treasmus on Sept 2, 2011 12:35:46 GMT -5
Not at all. Look below for details. Only if he came forward with a certain proposition, which he didn't. She was waiting for him to make the proposition when she stayed in the office, but he didn't. She's already made up her mind about what she'd do if he didn't, then he didn't, so she wanted to move on to doing what she had planned, i.e., going out and dealing with the problem by herself. I don't think she was embarrassed. First of all, I think she was pissed at David because she thought this was her own business that she's decided to "sort out" by herself. She's already made up her mind about it, and it took a lot for her to decide to do what she was about to do. Once Maddie's mind is made up, there's not a lot that can change it. Look at how calm she is when she walks into the office and sees David and her employees playing strip poker. She doesn't even argue with him. She's calm because she's already made up her mind about something and she is focused on getting it over with. And then he tries to spoil it for her, which is unacceptable for Maddie. Still, she throws him one final bone when she stays in the office, and he doesn't pick it up. Secondly, she was not in love with him at that point, nor did she want to sleep with him at that point, as was made blatantly clear when Sam showed up. Thirdly, she knew it wasn't a subject she could discuss with him because she knew it would hurt his feelings, but he wouldn't leave her alone about it so she figured she'd "pay him back" by telling him exactly what he didn't want to hear. Look at her facial expression after she tells him, embarrassed is the furthest thing she is at that moment. She is pleased with herself. Notice her facial expression when she tells him "Wipe that shocked expression off your face!" In a way, in telling David about her plans, she verbalizes what she was doing in front of that mirror in the opening sequence. The exhibitionist side of Maddie comes into play. She's glad she's told him because she thinks it'll teach him a lesson about bothering her when she does not want to talk about something. It's as if she were telling him: "Well, there. How's this for a confession? Told you you didn't want to hear this!" When she tells him "Well, it's nice to know we can confide in our friends", she's not accusing him of not being a good friend or a good listener. She clearly says it to push the dagger in even further. It's the one time he wants to listen but, unfortunately, it's the one time when she's made up her mind about sorting it out on her own. Remember that she's a control freak. She does not like it when someone contradicts her decisions. Actually, on the one hand, she wants to sort it out on her own, while on the other hand she wants David to know exactly what she's planning to do. That's my reading of it. Thinking about the “real” episodes leading up this one, Maddie’s feelings for David are the strongest they’ve ever been. She won’t admit to herself yet that she’s in love with him, but she cared about him enough to follow him to New York to be by his side during his brother-in-law’s funeral. That, in itself, was an impulsive, spontaneous act – making the plane reservation in the middle of the night – completely out of character for her. And it paid off. In spite of the fact that he couldn’t bring himself to take her to the funeral, she was glad she went, and pleased by the dynamic between them on the plane ride home. The expression on her face as she looked up at him while she rested her head on his shoulder said wonders: she was realizing how much more there was to him than she knew and allowing herself to consider the possibility of spending the “next twenty or thirty years” with him. By the beginning of this episode, Maddie is feeling the pull of that side of her – the side that can be impulsive and spontaneous. What I don’t think she realizes, though, is that it’s David that inspires that in her. She equates David with passion and recklessness and, subconsciously, she’s confusing and substituting her desire for David (which she’s afraid to admit to herself) with a desire to “be reckless”. I think it’s all about him. She’s tired of being so controlled all the time (denying her feelings for David), has enjoyed the tastes of fun and spontenaity she’s had (with David), and wants to indulge that side of her in a big way (give in to her feelings for David). Of course, I don’t think she’s conscious of any of this, as she still can’t admit to herself that she loves him. For the record, I also don’t think her feelings were all about her need for sexual gratification – it was all about her need to let her impulsive, passionate side out. See, but this is Maddie we're talking about. Just because she feels this way about David in "Big Man on Mulberry Street" does not mean she feels the same way about him in "Blonde on Blonde." Maddie's feelings change with the weather. I think her recklessness in "Blonde on Blonde" does have something to do with David, but only in so far that she feels restrained by him. I don't think she's denying her passion for David when she says she feels restrained. She really does feel restrained because David won't let her have a private life (I think the final straw for Maddie is when David tells her, with a smirk on his face, "You're going home, aren't you?!", when it was so difficult for her to make up her mind about going out and "getting through" what was bothering her. Doing something like that is so unlike her and his reaction at that moment just rubs her the wrong way.), and yet he won't come forward either. What does he do after she tells him? He follows her. And when he finally decides to confront Maddie about his feelings (or, rather, when the blonde in the jail scene decides for him), as we all know, Maddie's already taken care of the situation.
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Post by iluvdavid on Sept 2, 2011 12:42:53 GMT -5
I think that Maddie was in love with David way before Blonde on Blonde. The way she looks at David in most of the episodes in Season 3 shows her feelings...when he isn't getting her angry! And why would anyone follow a man 3000 miles away and spend money on airfare and a hotel room if it wasn't because you were absolutely crazy about him?
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 2, 2011 16:36:09 GMT -5
And when he finally decides to confront Maddie about his feelings (or, rather, when the blonde in the jail scene decides for him), as we all know, Maddie's already taken care of the situation. Interesting... Just one question: what do you mean by "Maddie's already taken care of the situation"? You mean she slept with Sam?
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
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Post by treasmus on Sept 3, 2011 2:18:43 GMT -5
And when he finally decides to confront Maddie about his feelings (or, rather, when the blonde in the jail scene decides for him), as we all know, Maddie's already taken care of the situation. Interesting... Just one question: what do you mean by "Maddie's already taken care of the situation"? You mean she slept with Sam? Yup. That's it.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 3, 2011 4:12:34 GMT -5
Interesting... Just one question: what do you mean by "Maddie's already taken care of the situation"? You mean she slept with Sam? Yup. That's it. Wait a minute, wait a minute...you are saying Maddie slept with Sam in the BOB? Sorry, but it is not true, you should re-watch S&D to see that their first time was in this episode, but no way in BOB.
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 3, 2011 4:36:53 GMT -5
Wait a minute, wait a minute...you are saying Maddie slept with Sam in the BOB? Sorry, but it is not true, you should re-watch S&D to see that their first time was in this episode, but no way in BOB. No, I mean David decides to confront Maddie, he goes to her house and Sam opens the door. David realizes what he should have realized a bit earlier (that Maddie will not wait for him forever and that he should have made his move when she stayed in the office and waited for him to make his move). Maddie's mind was made up about doing something about the situation either way (whether David confronted her or not), so it was just a nice coincidence that Sam came along. She would have gone out and done something even if Sam hadn't shown up. But it's inevitable that Maddie and Sam will sleep together. Maddie's behavior in "Blonde on Blonde" makes it crystal clear that she wants something to happen. But, also, just look at David's face when that realization hits him in the scene when Sam opens the door at the end of "Blonde on Blonde." It hits him right away and he immediately knows it's bound to happen. She's already made plans with Sam and it's inevitable that it will happen, so the "situation" that was bothering her no longer needs taking care of (by David). That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 3, 2011 4:47:38 GMT -5
She would have gone out and done something even if Sam hadn't shown up. But it's inevitable that Maddie and Sam will sleep together. Maddie's behavior in "Blonde on Blonde" makes it crystal clear that she wants something to happen. Well actually she did go out and as we all saw - nothing happened. If she really wanted it happen so much - why didn't she go with those men she met in that club/bar?
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Post by sandra on Sept 3, 2011 6:09:36 GMT -5
She would have gone out and done something even if Sam hadn't shown up. But it's inevitable that Maddie and Sam will sleep together. Maddie's behavior in "Blonde on Blonde" makes it crystal clear that she wants something to happen. Well actually she did go out and as we all saw - nothing happened. If she really wanted it happen so much - why didn't she go with those men she met in that club/bar? Agree, Goldie. I think she really wanted something to happen but then realized she didn't want it to happen that way. That's not Maddie.
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