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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 15:55:52 GMT -5
I do agree with bees also that there's an element of David not wanting to pressure Maddie--of wanting to make sure that she makes her own choice (though if he REALLY STRONGLY felt that way, he wouldn't have been in her bed at the end of IACM--he would've waited on the couch ), but I think the pain on his face is too evident to be mere selflessness. jpen
You are right jpen. LOL!!! Pretty presumptuous of him to go up to the "final frontier" without being invited....and in his boxers, no less!! Boy, if he had waited by the couch think how differently that scene would have played.........I can still see flying fireplace utensils though!! ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 16:10:56 GMT -5
Actually, Mark Harmon has aged nicely over the years. It is cool he has his own TV show and that you never hear anything negative about him. Just bad stuff about a character he played a mere 20+ years ago!! LOL!! He has, I agree, he is really nice looking but as "Sam the Sham", booooooo, lol
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Post by jpen on Feb 8, 2009 18:05:30 GMT -5
I have often thought David's silence with Sham was because maybe he was agreeing with him. And I hate thinking that David would feel he is not good enough for Maddie!! But, it had occurred to me as well. But, there has been some discussion over that particular scene......commentary maybe, or an interview I read.....where Bruce wanted to play the scene like that because it makes Sham to be the weaker of the two. He blabs away while David comes across stronger because he sits there and takes it. It really is a great scene and Bruce plays it perfect......it does make ol' Sham sound ridiculous!!! Yes, I remember this from the commentary as well. In the scene with Sham, I do think David is made more powerful by his silence; his look is one of sardonic amusement, almost. After all, Maddie came to him in the middle of the night, and they had a great time "bowling for brunettes." IMO, it's not until he & Maddie are in her office, and she cuts off his attempts to talk to her (and says it's none of his "damn business"), that he gets worried--maybe it's not going to be an open-and-shut case of Slamming Sammy...maybe she does have some feelings for Sam...and it's a short leap from there to the Painful Silence...
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Post by marple on Feb 9, 2009 3:08:29 GMT -5
gorky, beesn, jpen, sinceifell, you guys have really supplemented my thoughts by making such great analyses! Helpful and supportive as always. Thanks! You are right, sinceifell! I know what you mean. I think my comment was partial, just wanted to say where these misunderstandings between D&M happened. And thanks for your support!
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Post by jpen on Feb 10, 2009 19:01:27 GMT -5
I'd like to add, when she is laying there in the last few seconds while Sham is asleep, her expression says so much. "What have I done?" "OMG, nothings changed in my mind about David" "I shouldn't have done this." What am I going to do now?" There is even a small "gulp" she noticeably takes...symbolic to me of her trying to swallow the bitter pill that is her realizing that she was wrong. Sham was a replacement, a filler and although Sam is more established and disciplined...he's not David and that's who she desires. Maddie realizes, if only for that moment, all the things she thought mattered really don't. Totally agree! It's hardly the look you'd expect a woman to have after she's been intimate with the man she wants to marry...IMO, the game is up for her right here! Quoting myself? Weird, I know, but I just rewatched MttC and IACM again, and I have to modify what I said here...she is, as lin said, very clearly conflicted, but I'm not sure "the game is up" in this scene--at least, she's not conscious of having made a decision. The next day, when Sam comes to the office, she's quite welcoming, responding to his kiss, and making flirty remarks (bleh! ). I would've expected him to get a little more of the brush-off...except that this is AFTER she has tried to get David to talk. David holds her off (from his POV, I'm sure, he doesn't want to put his cards on the table when it seems like there's no point), she gets frustrated, and so she responds more warmly to Sam than she otherwise would have. But then Shammy proposes...and she feels backed into a corner. We all know what our Ms. Hayes does when cornered--she runs! Only this time, she's running to David. I think her decision is really made when she goes into David's office and sees it trashed; what he couldn't say to her, is communicated very clearly with his hockey stick. She finally realizes that she's not ready to marry Sam; and the reason she's not ready to marry him is because of how she feels about David. Phew! I feel better. ;D
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 12, 2009 22:03:22 GMT -5
Hey, jpen, I read your post, and was inspired to give MTtC another looksie (which isn't that big a sacrifice, since it's my favorite episode of the trilogy). Although I think your interpretation works, I'd like to offer this (admittedly radical, read-between-the-lines, over-the-top analytical) counter-argument:
I'm actually in the middle of MTtC as I type this--I was so inspired by this harebrained notion that I had to share it with y'all before it popped out of my head. Maddie and David have just found Mrs. McLafferty dead, and they've had a (IMO, very telling) conversation about falling in and out of love and betraying the people you care about. Maddie says that it's wrong to "just deny ten years"; but, on the flipside, she tells David that, "like it or not, sometimes people grow apart; they become attracted to other people. They don't always know why they do what they do." For his part, David counters, "it's still cut-and-dried, bottom-line, everyday betrayal." Of Mrs. McLafferty, he says that her suicide may have been provoked by the realization that "it was over."
And here's what occured to me: Maddie isn't conflicted because she doesn't know which man she wants--at least that's not entirely it. Her real problem is that she feels as if she's betraying Sam--betraying their past--by considering persuing her attraction to David. I don't think she's worried about being with David. (In fact, during their conversation in the office-- where she tries to goad him into admitting that he interrupted her dinner for reasons that had nothing to do with Mr. Viola--she seems almost amused. She is a woman more at peace with her feelings than she realizes: she's comfortable with David, entertained with David. And annoyed beyond belief with him. She wants him to level with her, own up to his feelings--she wants him to validate that attraction she's feeling towards him, by admitting that he feels it, too. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really do think that the Maddie/David relationship depends on that mutual assurance, that "I love you as much as you love me" security. Maddie can't justify her betrayal of Sam, unless she knows she'd be leaving him for a man who truly loves her.) What she's really worried about is hurting Sam.
Which leads me back to that conversation I quoted above. Maddie's guilt is pretty apparent there, as are her means to justify cutting Sam loose. But then David--and this really doesn't help his case here--says that leaving a pre-existing relationship for a new one is a betrayal. And as for knowing things are over? I think Maddie knows, subconsciously, that she has no real future with Sam; like I said a while back, she's faithful to David where it counts.
So I still maintain that Maddie knew she wanted David--albeit, subconsciously--since, at least, "It's a Wonderful Job", and that wasn't changed, even by Sam's entrance into her life. When Sam arrives, however, she does feel like maybe this is it; maybe Sam is the guy she should be with. After she sleeps with him, however, she realizes that it's really all an act on her part--she can't make herself stop wanting David. Maddie's goals, then, from that point on, are as follows: 1.) learn if David wants her, too; and 2.) find a way to let Sam down easy. Since David never actually confirms number one on that list (at least in words), it takes Maddie a while to work up the nerve to attempt number two on the list. I think that's why she's so wishy-washy about the proposal in IAC...M: telling both Sam and David that it's "none of their damn business", refusing to give Sam a yes-or-no answer. And I think your pin-pointing of the moment in the trashed office, jpen, is perfect--that was definitely the catalyst, the thing that made Maddie realize, "Okay, now I've got to do this thing."
At least, that's how I see this whole thing. Chances are, I'm just grasping at 'essed' straws here. If that's the case, feel free to ignore my little tangent (I really ought to make that my signature here--tangents are certainly my forte).
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gorky
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Post by gorky on Feb 12, 2009 23:32:55 GMT -5
Forgive the double-post here, but I decided to watch a few choice scenes from "I Am Curious...Maddie" (what can I say? It's a slow Thursday night 'round these parts), and I just wanted to add this to my above, already long-winded assessment of Maddie's predicament: I think you can see the progression of Maddie's feelings throughout the trilogy. In "Sam & Dave" (which, as much as I seem eager to stray away from it, is the topic of this thread ), she's happy that Sam's back, upset that David's not talking, and confused about what she feels and for whom. In "Maddie's Turn to Cry", like I said above, the confusion progresses to a more conscious belief that David is the one she truly loves; this realization, however, carries with it the unbearable (to Maddie) thought of hurting Sam, her oldest friend and, it's probably safe to say, first love. And then we come to "Curious". This is the episode where Maddie's frustration really reaches its breaking-point. She loves David--after the night they spent together, after the crying and the kissing and the chasing of adulterous murderers--she'd be hard-pressed to deny how she feels for the guy. She's feeling like a jerk for leaving Sam in the middle of the night--look at that guilt on her face when she realizes he's in bed by himself in MTtC--but she's also feeling zilch in the willingness-to-marry him department. Yes, marrying him would be easy, safe, predictable--she knows Sam loves her (or, at the very least, is willing to commit), which is more than she can say for David. So she confronts David one last time about his feelings for her and, when he doesn't give her the answer she wants, she goes off to have dinner with Sam. And here's the turning point: the Barrage in the Garage. Maddie is equally frustrated with Sam and David at this point--they're arguing over her like rabid wolves, like she's a piece of meat they both have their eyes on. She escapes to the elevator, and when she gets back, she finds David in a heap on the floor. She goes to help him up, clearly feeling awful--and also, I think, wanting to comfort him--but he brushes her off and just walks away, pained and muttering about just wanting to talk. And then she fights with Sam in the car. This, I think, is where she makes the transition from not wanting to hurt Sam, to realizing that he really views her as some conquest, some prize to be won, some way to prove that he really is the better man. (If that assessment seems unfair, keep in mind that I was reading "Sam the Sham" over at Virtual Moonlighting a few hours ago; excellent summary of Mr. Crawford's character, dear writers. She begins to resent him for expecting so much of her--even though, in reality, he's not asking so much. A yes or a no is all he's looking for. But Maddie can't give it to him, because of her feelings for David. Forget committment--this is really where Maddie realizes that the guy who truly respects her, who can truly make her happy, is David. (That's not the same as being proactive about the situation, but at least it's a start. ) So she heads back to Blue Moon. And then she comes across David's office, a total wreck, a portrait of his pummeled, pulverized heart. And, again, like jpen says--that's what makes her become fully conscious to the situation, to her own feelings and to David's. She sees that she's hurting David (maybe even more than she's hurting Sam), and she understands that the guy is heartbroken. And, what's more--she's hurt because he's hurt. Unlike the situation with Sam--where she was guilty because he was hurt--this is about empathy: Maddie and David are both in pain, and there's only one way to really remedy the situation. Skipping over the hilarious segue at the bar with Agnes, we come to the (pre) Big Bang: Maddie's speech to "Sam". This, to me, is her ultimate goodbye. She's laying it on pretty thick, because she doesn't want to hurt Sam any more than she already has--her conscience probably couldn't take it. (And, to be fair, she did care for Sam immensely--just not in the same way she cared for David. So, although I don't doubt her affection for the guy, I still think the speech is driven more by remorse, guilt, and a desire to keep Sam's pride somewhat in-tact.) And we all know what happens from there, so I think I'll lay this post to rest. Thanks for listening...er, reading; I know my 'essedness' is in full-swing tonight, and I'm sorry you all have to be subjected to it.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 14, 2009 12:14:53 GMT -5
In "Maddie's Turn to Cry", like I said above, the confusion progresses to a more conscious belief that David is the one she truly loves; this realization, however, carries with it the unbearable (to Maddie) thought of hurting Sam, her oldest friend and, it's probably safe to say, first love.
Yes, reasonable, I can see this... She's feeling like a jerk for leaving Sam in the middle of the night--look at that guilt on her face when she realizes he's in bed by himself in MTtC--but she's also feeling zilch in the willingness-to-marry him department. The sun looks a bit high when Maddie gets home, I think she went to breakfast with David; yeah, she feels guilty but she does it anyway...IMO. This, I think, is where she makes the transition from not wanting to hurt Sam, to realizing that he really views her as some conquest, some prize to be won, some way to prove that he really is the better man. (If that assessment seems unfair, keep in mind that I was reading "Sam the Sham" over at Virtual Moonlighting a few hours ago; excellent summary of Mr. Crawford's character, dear writers. She begins to resent him for expecting so much of her--even though, in reality, he's not asking so much. A yes or a no is all he's looking for. But Maddie can't give it to him, because of her feelings for David. Forget committment--this is really where Maddie realizes that the guy who truly respects her, who can truly make her happy, is David. (That's not the same as being proactive about the situation, but at least it's a start. ) Gorky, now I have to disagree with this one part...Sham's asking for a lot more than a yes or no. I agree she resents Sham now...to me, he's good guy sinister, you know...his timing and stuff, the extra things like the breakfast and dinners and stuff...nobody acts like that all the time. And what's with everybody staying at Maddie's crib? Why on earth did Sam just move in? (I loved when they argue and he say's "lets go home" and she says "yeah, my home", totally feel her on that) David has his own place, dab nab-it! That shows a great amount of responsibility there...he never takes from Maddie, he respects her need to have space and gives it to her willingly. She sees that she's hurting David (maybe even more than she's hurting Sam), and she understands that the guy is heartbroken. And, what's more-- she's hurt because he's hurt. ... Maddie and David are both in pain, and there's only one way to really remedy the situation. Oh yeah Gorky, you're right on here. Maddie stopped caring about how Sham's feelings I think when he "beat up" David. That was it for her, she was always gentle when she talked to Sham until that point. Sham feels it too because he has the need to say he "didn't start it". I think Maddie knew that David threw the first punch but she didn't care...she realized that she had to get away from Sham. we come to the (pre) Big Bang: Maddie's speech to "Sam". This, to me, is her ultimate goodbye. She's laying it on pretty thick, because she doesn't want to hurt Sam any more than she already has--her conscience probably couldn't take it. (... So, although I don't doubt her affection for the guy, I still think the speech is driven more by remorse, guilt, and a desire to keep Sam's pride somewhat in-tact.) And the fact she feels David's going to probably stall her out because he's po'd about the situation. Once Maddie makes up her mind, she is going with it. Maddie figured, OK, I'll sleep with him in case David stalls me out (like he did when Wally left) thus getting some in-the-mean time in-between time pleasure ;D. Maddie feels David with eventually get over the situation.
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witness
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Post by witness on Sept 8, 2009 1:00:58 GMT -5
It is pretty frustrating, David's inability to say those three little words. I don't think he would've been able to tell Maddie he loved her that night at the restaurant, even if S(h)am hadn't interrupted him. And I think it's because, to David, it's self-evident--of course he loves her. Can't she see that? The moment where it really bothers me, though, is at the beginning of IAC...M, where Maddie confronts him--"How do you feel about me, David? How do you feel about all this, David?"--and he says nothing. Granted, Bruce plays that moment so brilliantly--you can see the tears in his eyes, the pain on his face--and it's a very Dave-like response, but it's still infuriating (from my perspective, as well as Maddie's). What interests me is the dichotomy of David's behavior in this arc. BOB/S & D, we see him desperately trying to convey his feelings for Maddie. But Sham gets in the way on both occasions. Maddie showing up at his apartment was a GOLDEN opportunity, and what does he say? "I've always hated you." Then in their first scene in IAC...M he says, "I just want to talk to you about this." But when Maddie presses him, he zips his lip. Huh? Perhaps he was upset by Maddie saying the discussion wouldn't matter.
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Post by jpen on Sept 8, 2009 8:56:53 GMT -5
Maddie showing up at his apartment was a GOLDEN opportunity, and what does he say? "I've always hated you." I agree that Maddie is, in some ways, laying her cards on the line by showing up at his apartment--why in the world would she come over at 4:00am, unless she had a very vested interest in David and what he had to say? And then when she says, "What're we gonna do...He's perfect for me, y'know? But you and me..." She's clearly admitting there's something between them. But that's what makes her next comment, and his response, so perfect, for me. "I hate you" is Maddie & David-speak for "I LOVE you"--when he says "I've always hated you," Maddie (and me, too!) just melts. There are other scenes where I want to reach into the TV and shake David for not saying enough (or not saying anything at all)--but this particular one ain't one of 'em.
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 8, 2009 11:50:05 GMT -5
Maddie showing up at his apartment was a GOLDEN opportunity, and what does he say? "I've always hated you." There are other scenes where I want to reach into the TV and shake David for not saying enough (or not saying anything at all)--but this particular one ain't one of 'em. I'm with you. The I hate you banter, to ME was powerful as all get out. I think everything that needed to be said was laid out right there in that scene. Which is one reason that I find the subsequent scenes in future episodes where our couple want third party endorsed, certified mail delivered, DNA sampled, notarized "I Love You"'s all the more frustrating. Good golly, they KNEW how each other felt, why the constant bickering about vocalizing it. Whew! I feel better now.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 8, 2009 13:49:42 GMT -5
It's funny how this thread had evolved into the trunk scene in "Maddie's Turn to Cry". I was confused for a second until I backtracked through earlier posts!!
I agree with those that have said that David and Maddie saying "I hate you" is them saying I love you. The best part of this is that THEY know exactly what it means.
What infuriates me the most is not David's silence when Maddie pressures him to speak up in I AM Curious. Rather, when he finds out that Sam proposed the night before, Maddie tries to act as though the kiss and the "I hate you's" never happened. This sends David into a tailspin and it's no wonder he just stares at her with hurt and confusion in his eyes. He thought he had her until he hears about the proposal from Sam in the "do everyone a favor" speech.
Maddie, Maddie, Maddie.......
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 8, 2009 14:02:04 GMT -5
Maddie was just waiting for MY avatar to propose...but alas he is so two dimensional......
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 8, 2009 14:23:28 GMT -5
Aw gray!! She would have said yes for sure!! Then all us could have discussed it to death!!
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witness
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"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
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Post by witness on Sept 8, 2009 23:49:52 GMT -5
It's funny how this thread had evolved into the trunk scene in "Maddie's Turn to Cry". I was confused for a second until I backtracked through earlier posts!! Yo bees, I was reading the entire thread and noticed for myself the slow digression from the topic! But the posts got me thinking. Even as I was typing, I thought, "this doesn't belong here." I agree with those that have said that David and Maddie saying "I hate you" is them saying I love you. The best part of this is that THEY know exactly what it means. I agree with ALL of you on this point...I didn't express myself well. I was merely pointing out that in BOB and S&D David was set to make this huge proclamation of his love for Maddie. Then came the exchange of "I hate yous" which fit them and the situation so well (even if it was a MUCH easier way for them to express their feelings). It put them on the same page--until later that morning, anyway. But I've wondered what Dave would have said if his previous attempts hadn't been thwarted, which is what I meant by "golden opportunity" in his apartment: they were finally alone without distractions. Anyway, as the arc progressed, David came to realize that he had done enough in the verbal declaration department. In the end, his actions and non-verbal cues spoke volumes.
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