Post by bluemooner on Dec 14, 2007 11:23:23 GMT -5
OMG, maddieaddisonjr--nice post. i totally agree w/ everything you said. and everytime i watch "one of those" episodes and hear the theme song, i think exactly the same thing. how can those words be about anyone other than our david and maddie? it gets me so annoyed when i think about the way this show ended. ugh.
Exactly, I'm so thankful I can still watch the first 3 seasons over & over & no one can take that away from me lol, I didn't think this episode was that awful, at least Cybill did a good job, Maddie was back to the way she was, alive & outraged lol .. Gave it a 7 & that Annie is freaking hot !!
Post by maddiendavefan on Jan 11, 2011 20:29:00 GMT -5
Ahhh I'm in the middle of watching this episode for the first time, just at the end of David and Annies date, and I'm feeling nauseous. I can't believe what I'm watching blah yuck ugh! Guess I'll go finish the episode now, just had to vent!
Post by maddiendavefan on Jan 11, 2011 20:39:36 GMT -5
Oh wait! The tiniest glimmer of hope! Let me just say I love Agnes and I love her speech to Maddie in her office assessing her and David's true feelings for each other. It's nice to have, however small, an acknowledgment of what's really going on.
Post by maddiendavefan on Jan 11, 2011 21:56:28 GMT -5
So I just finished the episode and I have some mixed feelings. It was truly hard to watch (and listen to) in many parts, but I feel like there are a few positive things worth mentioning. As I said in my last post, I loved Agnes' speech in Maddie's office. Agnes has always been pretty in tune with the relationship between Maddie and David and I think the writers were using her as the voice of reason to remind us no matter what Maddie and David say, they're still romantically invested in one another and still doing things with the other person as motivation. Maddie's "I don't want him involved with me" is typical Maddie, proclaiming to herself, David and everyone else on the surface that she wants nothing to do with him. That's nothing new, she's been saying it for 5 seasons. But Agnes' "do you really believe that?" gets to whats underneath all of that... that which she doesn't want to admit to herself, let alone David or anyone else, that she absolutely wants to be involved with David but her rational (and dominant) side always fights to win by saying he isn't textbook "right" for her despite what her heart feels for him. And when Maddie compliments Agnes as a good student of human nature, I think she is acknowledging that there was truth to what Agnes had just said to her about her and David's relationship.
I also feel like this episode brought back some of the chemistry and spark that had been missing in a lot of season 5... not in the sense of adoring gazes or flirtations, but more so in the intensity of their fighting... it seemed to have real passion behind it again. And that passion has to come from somewhere. I think that although both Maddie and David's words in this episode seem to spell out that it's over between them (and that is what I found hard to listen to), their actions, attitudes and behaviors say differently. I feel like they are both trying to fool everyone else (and even themselves) into thinking they've moved on, but they both know in their hearts that they haven't and they both subtly give this away to the audience.
For instance, David's treatment of Maddie is straight out mean. There is outwardly no tenderness, understanding or even friendliness. BUT I think this is telling. If you were truly over someone and had no feelings for them either way, why intentionally treat them so hurtfully? I feel like you would just be completely disinterested, without caring enough to fight with them or treat them badly. You would pay them no attention. Now, if you were not over someone and were still harboring feelings of bitterness and loss on the other hand, I think you would very likely try to make them jealous to get back at them and use as a barometer to test their feelings for you. And you might also manifest your hurt and bitterness by treating them disdainfully because you feel that they deserve it for hurting you. But to still be that hurt and bitter, to me means you still do care very much indeed. In fact, I think every scornful word or glance David directs at Maddie is just proof that he IS indeed bitter over how much she has hurt him and is clearly NOT over her, otherwise that animosity wouldn't still remain. I think his anger towards her is born out of what he feels is rejection and all the hurt she has caused him over the past couple of years. I think he grew tired of waiting and being patient and understanding and still trying no matter how many walls she put up to pursue her finally wore him out and he's just grown cold and guarded. I think he clearly still loves her though, and his attitude toward her is a reflection of that. And I think, as Agnes said, he isn't truly interested in Annie, he is just using her for one, as a bit of a fun distraction and two, as a way to stay involved with Maddie. Why would the writers have Agnes say that if they weren't trying to put that reasoning out there to the audience?
As for Maddie's behavior, sure it was difficult to hear her talk to her therapist about moving on and to hear her conversations with Annie at lunch during which she seemed nonchalant and "over it" when it came to David. BUT, this is Maddie's MO... to keep her true feelings close to her chest and not show outwardly how she truly feels inside. This is nothing new. Sure, she is trying to convince herself and others around her that she doesn't love David anymore, she's even putting up that wall to David himself when she turns down his offer to go out dancing more often... she's constantly protecting her heart because she doesn't trust he won't hurt her and follows her brain telling her he's not the right "kind of man" instead of her heart which is telling her to throw caution to the wind because she loves him. But her response to Agnes' speech showed some acknowledgment of her true feelings to me, and the fact alone that she showed up to David's apartment and fell asleep in his bed waiting for him to come home so she could "talk" about something she wasn't quite sure why or what she was there to talk about... well, I think that is also very telling. She clearly has emotions bubbling beneath the surface and I can see both hurt and jealousy in her eyes. I think she just looked so sad when David told her to get out and left her sitting there to run after Annie. And that spoke volumes to me of what she really feels in her heart. Even though halfway through her speech she said she was there because she was "worried about Annie" I do NOT think that was all she came there to tell him. That's why she started off saying she wasn't sure why she was there, clearly she was feeling conflicted and confused about things. And David was about to hear her out but the minute she got "scared" and said she was there out of concern for Annie, David realized she wasn't going to admit her feelings for him yet again, and in disappointment at the fact that she was there putting up walls again and hiding her real feelings, he kicked her out.
Even their bickering where Maddie says he's doing this to get back at her and David calling her jealous and saying it has nothing to do with her, and them both denying both accusations, well I think they're both absolutely speaking the truth about one another but they're they're both too proud to admit it themselves. I think the writers specifically had them voice those opinions so we could have a little insight into what was going on in each of their heads, even though to the plain eye, everything seemed to be falling apart.
The one thing I did find a little confusing was how hard David tried to hide his sleeping with Annie from Maddie when she showed up at the hotel room with Chinese food. I starting thinking "well if he's trying to make her jealous, wouldn't he want her to see that...?" but then on the other hand, I think he did want to make her jealous but not totally rip her heart out and risk pushing her completely away forever. I think that although his "harmless fun" in spending time with Annie was indeed to make Maddie jealous, he was enjoying messing around with someone and having a bit of fun and taking his mind off all the confusion and heartache of the past several years for once. But I don't think he had any intention of making it a real relationship and pursuing a future with her and giving up on Maddie. That's why I think he was okay with Annie being married, because that spelled out to him that this WAS just a fling and not something he was taking too seriously. He could have some fun with Annie while she was in town, make Maddie jealous and hopefully stir up some passion from her in the meantime. But he didn't want Maddie to see him sleeping with Annie because deep down no matter how much of a front of meanness he was putting up towards her, he didn't truly want to hurt her badly and further deteriorate her opinion of him. Also, if David was truly developing feelings for Annie, wouldn't the revelation that she was married HURT him just a little? The fact that she'd been lying to him and was involved with another man seems like enough to bother someone who was starting to fall for a woman.
Even his talk with Annie in the car on the way back from the motel room scene I think reveals a lot. For one he says things are not gonna get complicated between them. Which undoubtedly they would if you were about to embark on a real relationship with a married woman whom you thought you might have a future with. He instead just spells out very superficial, "fun" details that make their "relationship" very UNcomplicated, which I think translates into not serious. Also, he just can't stop talking about Maddie, even if it is to bash her, but to me, that's a sure sign a guy is still hung up on his "ex." He keeps pointing out Maddie's faults, but the bottom line is, he is thinking and talking about Maddie while in the car with Annie. He's comparing the two of them in his head as being very different, but it's those infuriating things about each other with Maddie and David that made them so passionate and fit so well together!
Anyway, this episode was both heartbreaking and slightly encouraging, if you could look for the hidden glimmers of truth underneath all the yuck. Now, time to watch the next installment... deep breath...
Great and thorough analysis, maddiendavefan! I've never watched this ep and, after reading all the posts about it, probably never will. Animosity? Meanness? Everything over? Nah, I don't wanna see any of this, not when I know I won't even be rewarded with a happy ending to all this crap!
I like Virginia Madsen but not here. She just seemed kind of boring. Her and David poking fun at Maddie's house, her alphabetizing her magazines seemed a little mean. Maddie didn't seem like Maddie either.
The Demi Moore cameo seemed forced. If Demi just got David to turn his head, great cameo! But it felt like a "this is the one for me" moment, which makes sense in real life since he married her but...in a show where Maddie is the one, it doesn't fit. The only thing I really liked was Annie and David's night on the town. It really felt like L.A. and I wish there were more episodes that looked and felt like that. It seemed like most of the scenes were high rises and business districts.
I gave this one an 8(would have been a so so 6-7, but the last scene and the Saperman(?) case lifted it). I'm always kind of shocked to see how people rate most episodes here often between 1 or 10. I mean, every episode of Moonlighting, I gave at the very least a 6. Doesn't it always have that beautiful intro/outro? Those beautiful shots of the city? That great 80's feeling? The view from Dave's office? A big reason why I fell in love with this show was all that. Not just the whole Maddie and Dave thing, but the whole atmosphere.
Now as I understand it, most people hate season 5 and 4 because they feel Dave and Maddie should have ended up together and all. But that's so Hollywood. How often does that really happen in real life? Isn't it more like the way the show showed it to us? People try, but can't make it, even though for silly reason? Isn't season 5 still good in a way for giving us all those moments of Maddie and Dave where we get to see that there are still feelings there? Those two just never manage to properly express them at the same time. If they did, the show would have ended earlier.
At the same time, we have Bert and Agnes who basically mirror Maddie and Dave. Those two get their happy ending and yet many people don't seem too care too much for them or their episodes. Maybe cause it's all so "happy"?
I admit, the whole "adding Annie" thing wasn't really done well. She comes out of the blue, disappears quickly, falls in love too fast(and Dave too), is willing to leave her husband like it's nothing(and Dave seems willing to trust her, even though he knows from experience with his own wife, ex gf, all the cases that a cheater will always be a cheater). But I blame that on the writers and lack of episodes. I think instead of having "Maddie's cousin", it would have made more sense to have his ex wife or some ex girlfriend or someone from his past show up as a love interest(sort of a female Sam). Maybe then people would have been willing to accept it?
Ok I didn't know if I could make it through a rewatch of this but I wanted to see if I would feel any differently about it this time years later. I think maddiendavefan above just about summed up every thought I had while watching this, I love Agnes's speech, she knows these two too well. Yeah a little glimmer of hope. I have to vent about what I hated though and sorry there is a lot. The scene with Demi at the beginning always just seemed out of place and I thought just there because she was with Bruce, Still feels that way and in this show I just don't want to see David looking at anyone but Maddie that way, Can't help it. But maybe it was supposed to mirror the way Maddie was feeling in Blonde. Think David has been alone for a while now and is tired of waiting for Maddie to come around, I hate the way Maddie talks about David like he is the lowest of the low. All Maddie and Annie's laughing was just annoying and just seemed out of character for Maddie. I hate the way Maddie treats David when he comes to pick them up and he tries to reassure her he won't embarrass her. The dance between David and Maddie felt very bittersweet. The music was kind of sad and David was being very sweet and Maddie just kept shooting him down once again, Then we she shows up at his house, he is willing to listen, she just starts in about Annie. I can see where he would just give up at this point that they are ever going to be together.. Ok done with the Maddie bashing, Of course I hate what David does in this episode and carrying on with a married woman seems very out of character with the David we know and love. One thing I noticed was when He tells Annie he tries to be someone that doesn't take himself too seriously, she says she likes that about him. Something Maddie always seems to criticize. Maybe that's part of his attraction/distraction with Annie. Is he with Annie to make Maddie jealous or to purposely hurt her? I don't know. I'll refer back to what Agnes says here. And maybe he is trying to make her jealous, and looking for a little fun and distraction. The guy has been hurt a lot. I love that there is spark and real emotion back in the fighting. Maddiendavefan said this very well above. Ok on with the next if I can stomach it.
Last Edit: Mar 2, 2019 18:21:15 GMT -5 by ryangie97