Post by davidsmaddie on Oct 22, 2007 19:03:25 GMT -5
When you sit down to think about it, why do you think Maddie went to David's place anyway?
I know in her speech she says she has no idea what she is saying or what she is doing, but she must have had some purpose to go to David's place. Also, she was in his bed. Did she want him back there and then? What if David made a move on her, would she have given in to him?
My feeling is that she figured David had always been hers for the taking. I think her intention was to be like "Okay David, you win I still do care." and David would have dropped Annie to make her happy. When that didn't happen, Maddie realized there was something more to him and Annie's relationship.
Was there? Or was David just pushing the knife in a little further.
I realize i asked a lot of open-ended questions but i figure thats what the board is for. I love to read different opinions to get different perprectives.
Post by haddie mayes on Oct 23, 2007 17:58:05 GMT -5
Hi. My view is that up until this point in their relationship it`s always been a bit one sided - David doing all the chasing and Maddie really not giving much away about her feelings .From day one Maddie knew that there wasn`t any competition from other women and she pretty much had David all to herself and no matter how hard she pushed him away he would just keep coming back for more .So maybe she felt she didn`t need to do any chasing as David did enough for the both of them . Now when Annie arrived on the scene suddenly Maddie started to panic , " what if David was serious about this other woman and what if the unthinkable was to happen - he stops trying with Maddie and moves on !!- So in Maddies mind she felt that she was losing him to Annie and had no choice but to get the big guns out and go to his place just like David did when he thought he was losing her to Sam. Wether or not she was hoping to fall back into his arms i`m not sure but i think it was more a case of " i`m not sure if i want him back but while i`m deciding no one else is gonna have him though. So maybe she went round there not only to talk but to see if Annie would be there also. Like she said to the bodyguard in Eine... she knows when David is doing his number on a woman and hates the thought of it . Could she see him making the exact same moves on her cousin as he had done on her only a few months earlier.
On the topic of wether David was pushing the knife in further , i don`t think he was ( well not ententionally anyway,) i`m not sure that even a 5 season David would have been that cruel . Maybe he actually was attracted to Annie i mean they were cousins with similar looks and similar personalities to a degree but where as Maddie was afraid and reluctant to let her guard down and show off her fun loving side and give into her feelings for David, Annie wasn`t. See now this is the point where i know longer understand the writers logic . Once David had come to his sences and ended it with Annie. ( Lets face it we all knew and deep down so did he that he could never really fall out of love with Maddie - the love of his life - his soul mate -the person that he would give up his life for- mother of his child!) And Maddie i think by then had come to realize that she couldn`t live without him why didn`t the writers have them coming back together again . It`s kinda funny and frustrating but the more questions we try to answer the more questions seem to pop pop.
Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 24, 2007 9:48:57 GMT -5
First of all, I think it's really interesting that Maddie went to David's house (I'm not even talking about being in his bed, yet). What's funny to me is that whenever she is at a crossroads with him, she goes to him, to his apartment, directly. Like in "Maddie's Turn to Cry," when she is at a crossroads between David and Sam, she goes to David's apartment to confront him. Of course in this case, she was doing the choosing, but she needs to find out exactly what David is feeling for her in order for her to make HER decision.
Maddie didn't just end up at David's house, even David calls her on that, about "so you don't know why you're here but you were rehearsing what you didn't know you were going to say" or something along those lines. She was going there with a purpose. Funny thing to me, is, that, I don't know if Maddie knows EXACTLY what she is trying to get out of this confrontation. I think there are similarities to what I mention about in MTTC. I think that a lot of her decision about their "relationship" was going to be based on David's reaction, like last time. And, like last time, there is an interruption in the discussion. Last time, it was Maddie realizing that Mrs. McClafferty's makeup was perfect after her alleged crying and the mad-cap chase ensues. This time, it was Annie busting in, and David chasing after Annie.
My theory is that Maddie thought that maybe just by her going over to David's, being direct, and being on his turf rather than on hers (the office, her house, etc.) that David would somehow reconsider his whole thing with Annie, not (in the moment) to necessarily be with her (Maddie). I don't think Maddie has consciously thinking, "Dump Annie and we can get back together," but she just didn't want David to be with Annie. Partly, because this is her MARRIED cousin. And, yes, I think Maddie had herself convinced that David was crude, lude, selfish … you know the rest.
However, when it was clear that David wasn't going to reconsider, that really shook her, right to her core. It's the whole "you don't know what you got 'til it's gone" thing. I think, right then and there, maybe for the first time, she realized the depth of her feelings for David. You'd think that their a million miles to the moon and back, 3 years working side-by-side, all that sexual tension, the Big Bang, the alleged "great month together," the pregnancy, the miscarriage, in all of that, Maddie would have realized just HOW MUCH SHE LOVED DAVID. But nope, IMO I don't think it hit her until that moment. (And it sure did leave a mark – on her heart.) There is something about that look on her face, when David tells her to put out the light, it's more than sadness or shock or disappointment. I don't know how to even articulate this, but it was soooooooooo deep, there was so much pain, like she was punched in the gut. Honestly, I never even saw that kind of emotion in A Womb With a View, in that hospital scene after losing the baby. (Honestly, I always thought that scene was de-void of emotion, it felt very stilted and insincere. But that is for another conversation.)
As for David? I don't know about him, the writers were all over the place in seasons 4 and 5. The Angst-Ridden David of season 4 was really wearing thin. In real life, after going through the roller coaster of emotions that was season 4, capped off by losing the baby at the beginning of season 5, not to mention the whole "pals" thing, would have to leave anyone just spent emotionally, looking to find some happiness wherever one could find it. I can see a decent amount of displaced anger, too. I could see David angry at Maddie for all of her shennanegans in season 4, but of course all of that being pushed aside for the end of her pregnancy (when she did come back to him) as well as the sad ending to the pregnancy. Don't kick her while she's down, so to speak. But by the end of season 5, that was enough time to have passed for it to be "OK" to be mad at Maddie, and dating Annie is a perfect way to get Maddie back. I don't think it hurts that Annie was more fun-loving than Maddie, as David at this point desperately wants some "fun" back. But like Laura said, there was probably something endearing to David that Annie was Maddie's family – maybe like having a more fun version of Maddie. As Maddie said, this had nothing to do with Annie.
Was David pushing the knife in further? No, I don't think so. That was just their strange little tango, she pushes, he pulls, and vice versa. And, I think David might have been a bit resentful that Maddie was even there. She had made it clear that "Us banters, and us solves cases, and us does IT a lot less than us is doing IT now." Meaning, that they weren't together romantically (or sexually, or whatever you want to call it) anymore. But she never clearly shut the door on them, either. While the whole Annie thing was, at its essence, a way back into Maddie, I think David resented that she could use his guts like a mop and just expect him to jump back in whenever SHE was ready, even though HE was in another relationship. He had control over things for the first time in a long time, and I think he resents Maddie's mere presence.
I think Maddie being in David's bed was just another case of the writers recycling a story line. I might have liked it too if they had ended up the same way they did in IACM In fact, the thought that Maddie just "fell asleep" in his bed was a little too contrived, it is EXACTLY like IACM, without the excuse of pain pills. And she pops up a little too fast, it was weird and awkward, like she wasn't asleep at all and was just pretending.
OK, I sure didn't mean to write a thesis on this topic I do LOVE the discussions, though, I can't wait to hear other people's opinions!!
Great thread, great discussion, everyone. As I read all your thoughts and ponder the questions, I am at a loss. I keep hearing Maddie say to David "I know why you are doing this. You're still mad at me, trying to get back at me" or some words to that effect. She also says that she knows the game David is playing. Of course, David denies all of this. Letting herself into his apartment (still has a key?), laying in his bed, saying those words - it seems that she should be telling David that he has proven his point and that she still cares for him. But no - she starts going on about Annie. David loses his patience at this point and tells her to leave. So, back to the question - why DOES she go to his apartment? On the surface, Maddie is trying to convince David that his little game is only going to hurt Annie, that she will be a casualty of their war. Could it be as simple as that? Knowing our characters, I guess not, but what was she really feeling at that moment? Does she want David or not? She pushed him away during the dance scene. She has rejected his attempts to salvage their relationship, which brings us back to the topic at hand. As I said, I am at a loss.
Oh Lin, you summed it up pretty good and also everyone elses views all have good points. My head just swims with too many questions that were left unanswered. It really can be very confusing to figure out why the writers did what they did at the end. Maddie going to David's apartment and making herself at home in his bed? Makes no sense. Sit on his stairs and wait for him but go in his bedroom where she spent time with him as lovers and fall asleep there? OK it should have gone like IACM when Maddie found David in her bed but it didn't, David wasn't happy to see her there and then leaves her there to run after Annie. Ok how long had he known Annie really? Was it only 1 day ago they met ? I wonder what the time line is. Is it just days he's with Annie and he got intimate quickly with her didn't he? Yes Maddie had pushed him away, but i think it was a way to reach out to him by being in his bed. Did the writers do the right thing? No they didn't. Maddie doesn't look mad at the end but SAD, she expected David to stay with her and talk and not go after Annie and all that Maddie had gone through with the baby i think David owed her more in his treatment of her. i do think cause it was Maddie's cousin he went full steam ahead. if it was some other woman i don't think he would have acted so strongly against Maddie. Ah my head is constantly full of this show i love it and these conversations!
Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 24, 2007 20:29:34 GMT -5
Oh Rose, my head is full of this show, too. I said something over the weekend when out with friends (I don't even remember what I said, but it was a ML reference) and my husband leaned over to me and said "No one gets the reference, you know" to which I replied, "I don't care, the reference was for me!" So yes, as it has been well-established, I am one of those "ss-ed" words
Back to the topic at hand, lin, I really do think that Maddie's original intention is to just get David to stop seeing Annie, so that, as you say, she doesn't end up a casulty in the M&D train wreck. And because Annie is married and D&A's affair is morally wrong (to M).
I don't know why the constant rejection of David's advances at the end of season 5. I think (besides the fact that the writers were idiots at this point) David's statement from earlier in the show's history "...Because you won't let yourself be happy" pretty much sums up Maddie. Deep down Maddie loves David but still has the mistaken notion that even though she loves him, he isn't the "right" one for her. And it really took for David to "choose" Annie over Maddie (at the end when he runs after Annie and leaves Maddie to put out the light) for the lightbulb to go off over Maddie's head. That, DUH, you love this guy and maybe, just maybe, this isn't about getting back at you, that maybe David is just finally moving on with his life. Of course I believe that Annie IS all about Maddie for David, but maybe Maddie realized in that moment that things can't stay in that state of limbo forever.
OK, gotta go...the real life husband just called up and wants to know if I want to watch a ML, because the game is boring. Love you guys, but come on, I know where my priorities are! (With the husband, not just because he is indulging me in an episode of ML!!)
Post by davidsmaddie on Nov 2, 2007 16:20:49 GMT -5
I also always wondered that if the obvious mirroring of the sam story line (being in his bed when he got home) was intentional and if so, why? The outcome in WGC kinda of takes a way from the 'specialness" of the outcome in "Curious". Or maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic.
Now I don't know from the nicknames, but am I right to assume that most members of the board are female? It's interesting to see the points of view, but here's my male perspective on it:
I think David doesn't want to get back at Maddie or anything. As he said to her: "Not everything is about you"(or something). I've often been able to relate to Moonlighting and what Dave is going through (in my favorite episode "Tale of two cities", didn't he say something along the lines of "As soon as a broad knows you care about her, she starts unzipping the body bag"?) and have been through it myself.
Maddie is somewhat of a drama queen. She's highly insecure(a trait you often seem to find in pretty girls, with her being a former model). She's spoiled. We can see during her stay in Chicago and with her train dream that even though she is running Blue Moon, there are still parts of her life where she doesn't want to be active and stays passive(or passive-aggressive, like with David).
I don't know about David, but I HATE that kind of behaviour in a woman. It's very immature and really puts the kibosh on your emotions. If I were David, I would feel like I can't trust Maddie anymore(emotionally, that is). I'd still have the feelings for her(I think for guys, it's a lot harder to lose those as we're said to fall slower, but deeper, due to the feelings developing more "rationally" than "emotionally), but I'd be tired if I saw that she still won't change or make a move. And Maddie doesn't.
People jumped at his line "get out of my bed", but he just got back, it's probably 2 or 3 am at night...can't blame him for being tired. I don't think he meant it in a "mean" way. And despite of how exhausted he is, he still gives her a chance to talk to him(he still cares), but stops her when he sees that nothing has changed.
I think at this point, David is just done. He can't and won't pursue a woman like Maddie anymore, who is unwilling to make up her mind because it probably dawned on him that she never will. That's what I'd think if I were him. I know I'd find all those excuses to try and try again(but then again, I'm someone who hates to give up on something I started cause I only start things I'm fully convinced of and invested in), but for my own sake, I'd try to distance myself and I'd try to move on.
Now as for Annie...yeah, I think this is where I really have to blame the writers. Remember when Maddie first got jealous with David when his ex wife(?) came to see him? Annie should have been someone like that. Not a woman who saw him flirt and fail on the elevator, making fun of him 5 minutes later in Maddie's office, but already seemingly being smitten with him the same evening. I mean, come on, is she 12? It just seems so rushed. And him running after her?
But yeah, I think Maddie blew it. I don't know about you ladies, but I never quite understood why women(especially modern women like Maddie(at least that's how she seems to see herself) seem to be sooo afraid or unwilling to be active and make a move.
As a strong contrast to that, we have Agnes. She actually proposed to Bert and she is the one who quickly decides that yes, she wants to move in with him. I often thought Bert and Agnes are a mirror to Maddie and Dave, only that they do all the right things where Dave and Maddie don't(and it's often thanks to Maddie). I just can't help to think, time and time again that Maddie Hayes just always stands in her own path. To quote Pulp Fiction: "Well, f... pride! It never helps...it only hurts..."
In this case, it hurt Maddie and it seems to have crushed any chance of Maddie and Dave to ever be a couple. Because Maddie can't seem to get over her pride and fear to embrace things with David. She doesn't seem to understand that we call it "falling" in love for a reason. That it means taking a risk. It's sad, but it's how it is, isn't it?
At least that's my (male) perspective on this scene, season 5 and the show:).