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Post by lin212 on Oct 1, 2007 18:34:10 GMT -5
I watched S5 last week and I have been pushing this thought around in my head. I know I am going to make some assumptions here, but I hope you will indulge me.
It suddenly hit me that David seemed to be the desperate one, not Maddie. His attempts to rekindle the flame with Maddie were futile. Remember his comment to Maddie when dancing with her in WGC, suggesting that they do this more often and her resounding NO.
Obviously the writers, producers, etc. had to know that the pals thing wasn't working - heck, Cy comes out and says that the audience wanted romance, they didn't want to see David and Maddie as friends. So, let's assume that the *A* story line was contrived to mirror the Sam story line, but in this version, David deliberately gets involved with *A* hoping that Maddie will become jealous. Remember how upset Maddie was in MHGM when she saw David with Terri? Maybe David was hoping that his fling with *A* would have the same effect. I don't believe that David was falling for *A*. I think he had a motive, was looking for some laughs. That's why he says that their relationship was not going to get complicated. Basically, he was using her and came to his senses when he met Mark and realized that his little game was dangerous. Besides, he didn't really want to hurt her.
Case in point - when Maddie turns up in David's bed, he is willing to listen to Maddie when she wants to talk. He might have been expecting her to confess that she still loves him, etc., etc. Instead, she starts talking about *A*, so David unceremoniously asks her to leave. It wasn't what he wanted to hear.
This doesn't make David any less a jerk or *A* any less a witch, but when you look at David's actions as a means to an end, it seems to show his desperation/frustration. That's not to say that he wasn't enjoying *A*'s company, but I think that *A* was taking their relationship much more seriously than David.
Of course, we'll never know where the story would have taken us and if the writers were planning to move them back toward each other. We can only speculate.
Well, that's what was going through this "essed" brain last week. "Thanks for listening".
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 2, 2007 9:00:35 GMT -5
Lin ~ You're not the only "ssed" one around here, I'll line up right behind you. Funny you started this thread. Kind of meshes into something I was thinking about this week as I was watching S5. What I noticed, during WGC, is David's face when he makes that "offer" to Maddie (we should do this more often). It wasn't flip. It wasn't glib. It was actually pretty sincere, I see a lot of love there. Not mad, passionate, 14 straight hours in bed sort of love, but a mature, grown-up kind. The kind that I think Maddie always wanted. Now, Maddie isn't nasty in her response, but she quickly turns him down leaving David to make a quick recovery. What I also notice is how relaxed they seem to be. They are more like "old married people." No chaos, no frenzy. That's good, I guess. Maybe it would make for boring TV, but in real life, that's how things just end up. Also, I think it is interesting that, during the dance scene in WGC, Maddie refers to them as a couple. She says something to the effect of "We should be proud of ourselves, after everything we've been through, most couples would have murdered each other." I think, in a weird way, while the relationship was mostly platonic at this point, they had settled into a more comfortable place. But since things (LOTS of things) were never really resolved, they couldn't realistically stay in that comfortable place. Plus, this IS David and Maddie we're talking about here, things never stay settled with them for long! OK, this DOES tie into Lin's topic, I promise! I think that you've got it right, Lin. I think that D&M had settled into this netherland of comfortable companions. Not a lot of kissy, touchy or horizonty, but they do know each other well, orchestra to balcony But I think that those couple of overtures David makes to Maddie, which get rejected, subconsciously pushes him into another mode. I think Maddie does think she wants a "civilized" relationship. And the closest she ever comes to that with David (before the real show's demise, I'm not talking about what happens in the land of fan fiction ) is at the beginning of the A-arc. Maddie, again (albeit with less drama than before) is afraid to completely commit to David and leaves them in this horrible in-between. I don't think it is any sort of plan by David to get involved with A, it just sorta happens. But, as Lin outlines, him being with A is like Maddie being with Sam. But unlike Maddie and Sam, David's relationship with A is much more of a means to get to Maddie. Maddie was really confused and conflicted between her old flame and her new one. She really didn't use Sam to get to David, though the end result is sort of the same. David keeps vehemently denying that Maddie has anything to do with his fling with A. But he does it SO strongly, that I think he is trying to convince himself. And when Maddie is in danger, he goes into MEGA protective mode. WAY more protective than someone should be if they were just pals, or even former lovers. Their connection is much deeper. So, I too think David is the desperate one. And to hide his desperation, he becomes a jerk. Aside from Maddie's grandstanding to A about David being lude, crude and obnoxious, she really does take the higher ground here. p.s. I need to go back and see how many writers are involved in S5. Because it seems like each episode is so vastly different from each other! Sometimes M&D are pals. Then they kiss (when he gives her pearls). Then there is that whole "Color of Maddie" episode that is very sexually charged. Then in WGC, they are more platonic, even if he is steering her pelvis around the dance floor. It's quite schizophrenic.
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Post by rose35 on Oct 2, 2007 10:30:39 GMT -5
You guys are both right. I never saw Maddie as desperate, David definately is desperate. Why did he start that relationship so fast with Annie? He just met her and boom he was sleeping with her and telling Maddie he was haPPier than he'd ever been? He did say that right? Didn't he tell Maddie that about 1 year earlier that he was happiest cause he was with her now. He was trying to convince himself and her way too much that he was happy and she had nothing to do with what he was doing. UMMM HELLO youre with her cousin! If that isn't having everything to do with Maddie than i don't know what else is. I'm so glad i'm not alone in being one of those "essed" words too, cause let me tell you i'm "essed" LOL I think about this show way too much, i think about how it ended way too much and i 'm heartbroken all theses years later still. I guess i will always feel this way cause we never will get the ending we "essed" fans deserved. Thank goodness i have my kids to keep me from being essed all day LOL Back to David sure he irked me so much in these episodes. Yes i do think David may have been feeling Maddie out by staying lets get together more often, she did keep saying no but who knows why she did. So David tried to get her to admit she was jealous and Annie sure was a perfect way to do it. Any other random person would of had Maddie upset but not so upset she couldnt take it and Annie fit that bill. The show was canceelled and i think thats why it ended like it did. I could go on and on but i'll stop here
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Post by lin212 on Oct 2, 2007 10:31:00 GMT -5
honey, I so totally agree with your analysis of their relationship at this point - like an old married couple. This really seems evident to me in the episode with Richie (Those Lips, Those Lies). As David and Maddie talk about Richie, it almost feels as if Maddie is talking about her brother-in-law. You know, when they discuss David's feelings about his brother and the fact that Richie didn't tell David about Carla's "business", David tells Maddie that it seems as if she is taking Richie's side. The whole conversation makes you feel as if they are married.
You are right on when you describe David's face when they are dancing in WGC. He does try to recover from Maddie's rejection. The next part of the conversation - when Maddie says "most couples would have killed each other" and David says that he would be popular in prison - I like David's line "I'd much rather be here dancing with you". I too see a lot of love in David's remarks. It goes back to the old problem that David has had from the beginning - not wanting to put himself out there because he loves Maddie more than she loves him.
rose - just to clarify - I don't think that Maddie was desperate either, but apparently David does because he accuses her of sounding desperate (in the restaurant). Then remember when Maddie throws his words back at him when she says "Desperate women do desperate things"? I think she was mocking him at this point.
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Post by rose35 on Oct 2, 2007 11:04:49 GMT -5
You are so right about David being afraid to totally put himself out there, He kept dropping hints but she wouldn't give herself up to him . Why? Were they both afraid? I think so. I do think David may have Loved Maddie more, what do you guys think? Why do you think she told David to take Annie away? To prove to him she wasn't desperate? I thimnk he wanted Maddie out of town so he could do what he wanted without her looking down on him, i think. Ah this show and it's many layers I love these talks! Quick queston, when Maddie comes into office after the garage thing with her being chased, David goes right up to her and hugs her. Why didnt he check on her before that? Just wondered. He didn't want to show he cared? It always irked me.
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 2, 2007 11:10:39 GMT -5
Lin ~ What a great-great topic you started I can totally relate to the Maddie-David-Richie dynamic, as I have a very similar circumstance in my RL, as my very own David Addison (my husband) has a [much taller] brother like Richie (though he is younger and totally not a screw-up ) Anyway, I watch that dynamic and it is very real to me, and I am an old married woman now, hehehe Back to the topic at hand. You totally see that love again in David's face during that comment "I'd much rather be dancing here with you." And you are so right, David is STILL afraid that he loves Maddie more than she loves him. I wish I could tell him that he is SO wrong. It's just that 1) Maddie just doesn't wear her heart on her sleeve in the same way he does; and 2) Maddie is STILL afraid of committing, of totally giving herself to someone. And after the biggest loss a woman could have (loss of a child), she has finally got herself to a place of not-unhappy, so she is content to live there for a while. She made the comment during S4 (Trip to the Moon), "If this is love it hurts too much, if this is love I'll live without it." I think that's the place where Maddie is operating from at this point in S5. David taking up with A pushes Maddie out of this comfort zone and makes her face her true, buried feelings. I think this is where a lot of fan fiction springs from...wanting to see if Maddie FINALLY lets David in her heart. And also why everyone seems to want a reunion, even if it is them 20 years later. Because maybe, just maybe, a 20 year absence has made Maddie's heart grow fonder...AND more accssible to David. But this isn't going to degenerate into reunion talk. I'm not that desperate....yet Rose ~ OMG, you are so right about being glad about having a family keeping you from being totally "ssed" about ML 24/7!! Damn DVDs and the Internet, just when I thought I had cured my addiction.... But it's weird for me, because my husband is so much like David in a lot of ways (even down to having a brother (and no sisters), like I said earlier), and I think I (unfortunately) have some of Maddie's bad character habits, that something will happen with me and my husband in real life, and I'll be like, wow, that was a ML moment!
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 2, 2007 11:18:19 GMT -5
Rose ~ You snuck in.
I don't necessarily think David loved Maddie "more," I think he just loved her "differently," as in he was more outward in his affection. And like I said above, I think Maddie was kind of in "shut-down" mode, not wanting to deal with anyone's advances.
As for your question about Maddie saying David should take A away. I think that she has just had it, has no more fight left, and figures it's over between them. And after everything, David is *still* a party boy at heart and he just wanted to have fun with a fling. And I do think he wanted to hurt Maddie, to make her pay her penance for the Sam AND Walter things. Yes, many layers...he did want to make Maddie jealous so that ultimately they could get back together. But he also wanted her to feel some of the pain he did so A was a way to get back at her for that.
And, lastly, the not checking on Maddie issue. I never really thought about that. Maybe he didn't know about everything until he got into the office? I'm a little fuzzy on those details. Maybe if he did know, he didn't want to jump up right away and show his feelings, kind of like why guys don't call the morning after the first date...they don't want to look "too interested."
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Post by rose35 on Oct 2, 2007 12:13:20 GMT -5
;D I snuck in while you were typing huh? LOL I think youre right, they both loved each other but differently,but i think both thought they loved the other more and didn't want the other to know that. Maddie losing the baby is definitly enough to shut a person down for a long time and she says it to him in the hospital that they will never be the same again and she was right. Maddie giving up isn't what we wanted to see thats for sure but in a way she was, she figured well this is the real David, the party boy i always took him for not the long haul guy but with her he wanted to be the long haul guy. Daivd was totally devastated whe she left him he was heartbroken but she never got to see that and thats too bad. So yeah i believe he was out to hurt her and hurt her bad and he did . And him not checking on her was more of him showing he didnt care even if he wanted to check on her or maybe he didn;t know like you said. He was all over the cop thats for sure who was watching her. Oh this is FUN!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Oct 2, 2007 13:01:03 GMT -5
I noticed that all the posts here are from the feminine gender, so I thought I'd join in.
I think Dave's feelings towards Maddie went through TONS of gyrations throughout the series. From initial sexual attraction, to wanting to spend time together to wanting to spend ALL time together....then Sam.
Sam was the first time that Dave ran into the brick wall Maddie put around herself. He could have overcome that one. Then Maddie bails for Chicago....OK.....maybe he could understand that Maddie was in a difficult situation and all. Followed by my personal Jump the Shark Moment with Walter. If I were Dave (and projected myself into his persona many many times...still do), that would have been it.
But Dave soldiered on, somehow linking the Walter affair into the entire disappearing act.
Even after the awful ending of WWAV, Dave is still there, being supportive and understanding that Maddie will need some time to recover from all she has been through.
By the time Annie shows up, however, it is crystal clear that Dave has spent his last shell on Target Hayes and is moving on. Desperate? Don't think so, just resigned to the fact that He and She will never be a They.
Let me reiterate what I put in other posts however. I think Dave's conduct on the entire Annie storyline is totally out of character for him and reprehensible. The Dave we came to know may have been a party guy, but his inner morality would have NEVER let him get involved in a situation like that with a married lady, much less Maddie's Cousin. A short fling with somebody's wife....maybe that would happen, but I can never see him directly attempting to break up another marriage.
I don't believe that David thought he was making Maddie jealous because of Annie. I just think he was just being an a**.
If the writers were trying to get people pissed at David as much as they were with Maddie in Season 4...they succeeded.
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 2, 2007 13:12:16 GMT -5
graycav ~
Maybe it's because I am a girl, or a hopeless romantic, or both, but I'm not sure if I totally agree with you.
I really think that, especially in that dance scene in WGC, David seems to be extending one last olive branch to Maddie. If she wouldn't have rejected David yet again, don't you think he would have gotten back on the horse with Maddie?
I think that D&M were, as I put earlier, comfortable companions. I don't really see David moving on, do you? I only see David, perhaps being pi$$ed at Maddie for reading him the riot-act at her house before he took them dancing (no pasty shows, no entering us into wet t-shirt contests for free beer) and then for her, once again, rejecting his advances. And that may have been the initial motivation for David to take up with A. But as time wore on, I think that it was ALL about Maddie, not A.
But I do agree with you on one point, David was being an a$$. But I also do think that his measures were a little bit desperate in his own right.
I do enjoy the "outie"'s perspective on this discussion, though! Thanks for your comments! What does everyone else think??
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Post by lin212 on Oct 2, 2007 17:54:11 GMT -5
Before I jump back into this discussion, I have to say that I love love love where you all have taken this topic! I'm sitting here thinking - "it doesn't get any better than this" (channeling Bert). Who else in the world could I have this conversation with? Certainly nobody in my RL. Thank you all for being here. Now, back to the topic at hand. honey~ I really like your comment about David wanting to hurt Maddie just as she had hurt him. There is a scene in WGC that seems to make that point. Unfortunately David's comments are part of overlapping dialogue and as much as I have tried, I cannot filter out his words. Maybe someone else has. It's the scene at the stakeout when Maddie and Agnes bring the Chinese food. After Maddie sees A, she stomps back down the hall to the elevator where Maddie, David and Annie are all talking at once. I can only decipher the very end of David's comment when he says "but I guess that was different, huh?" Maddie replies, "You bet it was different". I can only imagine that David is comparing Maddie's surprise at finding him with A to his own surprise at finding Maddie with Sam and/or Walter. Even though David didn't know that Maddie was going to show up at that hotel, he seemed to be saying "now you know how it feels". graycav ~ I absolutely agree that David was an a$$, but I also feel that there was more to his actions than that. I think that he was trying to prove a point to Maddie, but his efforts didn't pay off. I agree with honey that Maddie was just too tired to fight anymore. Maybe it's just a Venus way of looking at things, what can I say? Which brings me to my last comment - honey ~ I so agree with you about Maddie being in "shut down" mode. You expressed it perfectly. I have some personal experience in this department and I can understand Maddie just wanting to be "not unhappy". Sometimes you come to the conclusion that the roller coaster ride is no longer exciting - it's painful. That is a great way to interpret Maddie's attitude. For me, the major shift comes at the end of WGC when she is in David's bed. Look at the expression on her face when David races out of the room to catch up with A. She is visibly upset - freeze frame. In this next episode, however, she seems to accept David's relationship with A despite the fact that she doesn't approve of it. She sends the flowers and apology to A. She is not going to fight for him - she's done.
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 2, 2007 20:12:43 GMT -5
Lin ~ You are so right...This stuff has been gnawing at the base of my noggin for YEARS and I've had no one to share with! I try with my husband, and I think he is a little scared that is wife is one of those "ssed" words about a TV show And I've been trying to have these conversations with my dear high school friends who lived the obsession with me the first time around, and they are now so kind as to tell me they humored me back then and never had a real interest in the show. (WTF? How can that be??? ) So thank YOU for starting this topic! I, too, have been at a place where I just wanted to get to "not-unhappy." And you do shut down. I'll share a little here. I never lost a baby, but it took 2 years and medical intervention to have a baby. It's like a little loss every month that you mourn when you don't get pregnant. After a while, you just want to stop being sad, but you don't have the strength to go all the way to happy. So I guess I identify with Maddie a bit, she has been through so much, and has just, JUST finally gotten to a point where she doesn't acutely hurt anymore. And that's enough for her. So, when she and David get to the comfortable companions stage, that's fine. Not "fine, fine, good, good;" but enough. But the whole Annie thing throws her back in the ring for more. I have always been devastated (OK, maybe that's a little dramatic ) at the look on Maddie's face at the end of WGC. I feel SO bad for her. But I think that moment for her was rock-bottom. All this craziness, all of it, was over for her in that moment. Even though you can see the heartbreak in her face at that moment in David's bed, she knows (as graycav puts much more eloquently) that she and he will never be a them, and she needs to move on. I always imagine her, after the freeze frame, just crumbling, sobbing into David's pillow, taking in his lingering scent, but then pulling herself together, turning on her heels, out of the room, turning out the light, and turning the page on that chapter of her life. Hence, the following episode, she sends flowers and an apology. She is an only child (which I, again, can relate to, me too!), and doesn't seem to have much other family. So she wants to make amends with Annie so as not to lose her as well as David. And to maybe, maybe, salvage some sort of friendship with David. But to fight for them to be a them? Nope, she doesn't have any gas left in the tank. I think she just wants to get back to "not-unhappy." I also just have to comment on the tremendous display of acting prowess we see in these last few episodes. I still believe that we were given crap by the writers. But the performances the actors give, in particular Cybill Shepherd, is amazing (especially in light of the writing garbage, to be able to find something actable to work with, identify with). BW is good too, though I think earlier in S5 he is kind of sleepwalking through the zany chase scenes and such. But for this arc of episodes, BW, and in particular CS, are just fantastic.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Oct 2, 2007 20:54:49 GMT -5
Ya know, I'm going to have to take another gander at WGC. Would Dave have jumped back in the saddle if Maddie hadn't rejected him again on the dance floor (don't ya love these double entendre's?)?? Absolutely.
IF (note the caps) Dave was fooling around with Annie to get Maddie jealous....man was that a miscalculation. One that I don't think he would have made. He would have had Agnes make another bogus phone call, not pull some prank not worthy of a bad high school romance novel. He was either doing it to spite Maddie, which is juvenile, or doing it and not even considering Maddie, which is likewise childlike.
Maybe I'm just a confused dude here. I could never see myself doing what Dave did, and I thought I could never see DAVE doing what Dave did. Perhaps it is just that I can't get it through my thick skull.
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Post by rose35 on Oct 2, 2007 22:03:31 GMT -5
This sure turned into a great topic for us. Thanks LIN! I loved reading Gray say he was going to have to watch WGC again LOL That's not something you hear often but for this topic it sounds like a plan for me too if i can get the time, usually it's only to watch clips on YT LOL I agree that i also feel so so bad for Maddie in the last scene of WGC. She looks heartbroken sitting on his bed. She sure felt comfortable to let herself into his apartment and lay in his bed and fall asleep, didn't she? Bet she could have been hoping he would be thrilled to find her there and that's the way it should have been done. The writers choose not too. Honey: just want to say thanks for telling your personal story. i too went through medical intervention to have kids cause it wasn't working for me and i was so sure i'd never have kids but i got me 2 little twin boys who will be 4 on saturday Also regarding the restaurant scene when Maddie asks Annie to lunch and David shows up. It's like "what are you doing here David"? Desperate much? Annie is Maddie's cousin so she had every right to ask her to lunch to talk about the weather and David too, but he didn't see it that way and that to me was desperate.
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Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 4, 2007 9:30:27 GMT -5
greycav ~ Our boy Dave was doing lots of things that were out of character in S5! Maybe because the writers were out of their minds? Anyway, maybe Dave knew that what he had done in the past didn't work, so he would pull out the big-guns (get involved with Maddie's cousin). I don't know. Very out of character indeed. Rose ~ Thank you too for your personal story. I'm so glad you got 2 little guys at the end of your experience. I think that watching ML as adults, having MUCH more life-experience and a better point of reference makes watching even more fun. And I was also thinking about David busting into their lunch. He sure likes to interrupt Maddie's big conversations at restaurants, huh? Actually, I think that act was SO desperate on David's part, too. I think that it was also the S5 writers not having an original thought in their heads and recycling old story lines (or at least previously used scenarios).
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