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Post by rose35 on Feb 17, 2009 23:38:45 GMT -5
Do David and Maddie really go too far to prove a point to each other? If so, how?I don't feel that they went too far on this one. Let's remember who we are talking about here. These are the two who put on a black dress and veil to get to the bottom of the masked lady mystery. AND the two who trolled through LA trying to find Mrs. Right for Mr. Tupperman. No, this is just about par for the course when it comes to competition between D and M. Exactly LIN! This is normal for M/D,they have taken opposites sides before over the years, they never really ever agree on anything but sometimes it resorted to this kind of thing where they worked seperately on a case a few times.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Feb 17, 2009 23:41:40 GMT -5
As Diane has contexted, this episode was a sign of the times (lots of prominent sexual harrassment cases about - a relatively new concept at the time) and my guess likely constructed to reflect the then-status of males & females within society - the male traditionally one of power & superiority (ie Neal is an executive, surrounded by powerful men, afforded the benefit of the doubt), while the woman, mired in a period of liberating transformation, conceptions of weakness, inequality & the need to overcompensate (ie the defendant's a "peon" lol, pinned as unstable and with the burden of proof, whom only women run to the defense of, etc). As has been seen throughout the series (with the last few rewatches provide some prime examples) David could be said to convey a somewhat chauvinistic psyche through his attitudes, comments, oogling, displays of machismo (as well as protectiveness & possessiveness of the woman in his life), as well as need to prove himself to other men. Actually, the same could be said of Bert too.
There are occassional occurences where he v. she sides are taken (Bert's beard quandry is one such example), but for the most part, the skins and shirts coexist within relative peace.
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Post by rose35 on Feb 17, 2009 23:43:41 GMT -5
Why does David automatically assume to drag the Wobblies into their battle? What does it say about David’s POV in this episode towards women, based on his choice for “shirts”? Does this differ from the David Addison of the previous 4 seasons? As far as "shirts' and skins" totally predictable that David would label the women's team "skins" yeah to me what comes to mind is PLAYBOY MAG, David has had a few of those type mags in his desk hasnt he and well Women show skin in them so it's like the term reminds me of that. Women being exposed. Ok kinda reaching far out there am i ? LOL Kinda sexist David maybe?
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Post by MoonBeemer on Feb 17, 2009 23:50:58 GMT -5
Does Maddie’s suggestive attitude entice viewers to believe she’s making an effort to continue a sexual relationship with David? I think the ending shows an intent on Roger Director's part to try and light the spark between the two characters again. Let's face it, the man knew the magic......and was one of the very few left who could try to recreate it. However, the entire writing staff never seemed to have a long range plan for season 5, and we got disjointed episodes that never seemed to flow. Correct me if I am wrong, but outside of Womb, and the Annie episodes...couldn't you just toss all the rest in a box, and determine which should come next? I don't feel there is any continuity in season 5...which is part of the problem. My answer to #10...um, what Diane said!
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Post by rose35 on Feb 17, 2009 23:51:18 GMT -5
Does David set a trap for Maddie, knowing she's do anything to beat him? Do you think David is truly surprised at Maddie for going "beneath" him or does he see it coming?I don't believe that David set a trap for Maddie. He made sure that she couldn't just wander into his office and raid his files, but I don't think he ever imagined she would go as far as she did to gain access. I think he really was surprised that she would violate her own code of ethics and break into his office. Yeah i dont think David set that trap either, He was genuine in his dinner offer i think and then he rambled on and it got Maddie so much more worried for her case then she already was. It was kinda far out there wasnt it for Maddie to crawl up there like she did, she could of got hurt LOL Why David came back into his office i dont know,did he come back to talk to her in her office and find her gone hmmm? Did he think she would try to break in to his door and not through the ceiling, maybe. I will say i do love the physical stuff Cybill did here, they both were very good at doing physical stuff .
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Post by rose35 on Feb 17, 2009 23:57:25 GMT -5
Does Maddie’s suggestive attitude entice viewers to believe she’s making an effort to continue a sexual relationship with David? I think the ending shows an intent on Roger Director's part to try and light the spark between the two characters again. Let's face it, the man knew the magic......and was one of the very few left who could try to recreate it. However, the entire writing staff never seemed to have a long range plan for season 5, and we got disjointed episodes that never seemed to flow. Correct me if I am wrong, but outside of Womb, and the Annie episodes...couldn't you just toss all the rest in a box, and determine which should come next? I don't feel there is any continuity in season 5...which is part of the problem. My answer to #10...um, what Diane said! I agree too! Oh why couldnt Roger taken over for the rest of the season! That ending scene sure was such a tease! Finally it showed some interest on Maddies end again, maybe you can speculate that things could have gone on sexually( but privately) between them , yes we know they didnt but darn it why couldnt it have! i wish we would have seen Maddie be alittle more responsive to David that way too, we saw David be very open with her and their relationship but they never showed Maddie that way. And yeah it mirrored David's funeral directions to a T also
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Post by MoonBeemer on Feb 17, 2009 23:59:50 GMT -5
9. We know David as a big ole softy for women, yet he sticks to his guns in this one. David reveals to Maddie that this has really been about her viewing him like a “Neal Fass”. What does this say about David’s growth when it comes to expressing his feelings to Maddie?Well, he got verbal again. Unlike the time before the Sam debacle, where Dave assumed his actions alone would carry the day, here he actually put into subject and predicate WHY he did what he did. No way was he going to let Maddie misunderstand his intentions this time. Darn straight! I actually find this to be one of thee most significant & revealing moments of the fifth season, if not of the entire series. David verbalizing his intentions and, in his own way, reiterating his values as well as his valuing of Maddie valuing him. In doing so, he won the ultimate challenge there and let's not underestimate the value of Maddie entrusting shared ownership of her business to him, even if she's not ready to relinquish control of her heart just yet.
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Post by rose35 on Feb 18, 2009 0:10:42 GMT -5
9. We know David as a big ole softy for women, yet he sticks to his guns in this one. David reveals to Maddie that this has really been about her viewing him like a “Neal Fass”. What does this say about David’s growth when it comes to expressing his feelings to Maddie?Well, he got verbal again. Unlike the time before the Sam debacle, where Dave assumed his actions alone would carry the day, here he actually put into subject and predicate WHY he did what he did. No way was he going to let Maddie misunderstand his intentions this time. Darn straight! I actually find this to be one of thee most significant & revealing moments of the fifth season, if not of the entire series. David verbalizing his intentions and, in his own way, reiterating his values as well as his valuing of Maddie valuing him. In doing so, he won the ultimate challenge there and let's not underestimate the value of Maddie entrusting shared ownership of her business to him, even if she's not ready to relinquish control of her heart just yet. I always couldnt understand this scene. It really irked me, like huh? David think Maddie thinks he came on to her in a sexually harrassing way all these years? is that really what we are supposed to think David thought? Maddie of course tells him right away he's wrong. I mean they loved each other ,ok so Maddie freaked out over the love in a way, but she never felt harrased. I loved how she did let David becone her equal then finally in the business, she always held the cards over his head ,that she was boss and he wasnt so after all this time together and the relationship they had it was about time she made him a partner. Too bad like it was said above it wasnt a partner in love along with work too .
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Post by diane on Feb 18, 2009 1:49:49 GMT -5
Great, great stuff for season 5, folks!
Thanks for the questions, Since!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 18, 2009 11:43:49 GMT -5
This is definitely off topic, but I just saw a trailer for next week's episode of 24. There is a slapping scene in the preview that definitely reminds me of D&M. See for yourself. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u90cQCKHV4Thieves...thieves, have they no shame, did it exactly the same (well not the same intensity but the same choreography) OMG...Gray you always find great stuff.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 18, 2009 11:44:42 GMT -5
Great, great stuff for season 5, folks! Thanks for the questions, Since! My pleasure
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 18, 2009 12:45:21 GMT -5
Good Q’s, since!! Sorry I am late to the fray, but I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the mix.
I am right there with most of the answers everyone provided, so I will not bore everyone with repeats( LOL!) Instead, I will bore you with my little “esseday” on Shirt and Skins. Feel free to scroll down to the next box at anytime!
This is, imo, one of the highlights of season 5. For those of us who have analyzed, criticized and scrutinized our heroes in depth,…..and you know who you are…….we can look at this one episode alone and see character growth as if it has been charted and presented by Bert! And while we may not be completely satisfied with “where the relationship is going” between them, this show certainly reflects what they have been through and how they are coping at this point.
Starting with David, we pretty much see that nothing has changed, but everything has changed! Just like the early ML days, he is still the wobblies hero in the office, both male and female, only now we see a reflection of the times----hello 90’s and the woman’s place in the work force! And while the men rally behind Coach Addison, I can’t help but feel that they really do not have a clue as to what is really driving Team Hayes! Is it the mere fact that David has challenged them in this little game or that the usual fence sitting Agnes has taken Maddie’s side in this one? Notice how David’s challenge is called off as soon as he sees that Bert and Agnes are suffering from it? Could it be that he feels the same way with Maddie? I think so. I believe the olive branch he extends to Maddie disguised as a dinner invitation everyone has been talking about is very sincere. Once again, his heart is right there on his sleeve. The last thing he wants is to drive something else between them. He is trying to meet Maddie half way again. Pretty big of him considering all of season 4’s angst and the declaration to Mr. Hayes in FNL that Maddie would have to come to him now. But yet, all the while, David does not relinquish his control of the situation. The little invite to dinner was his way of saying he is still there, that he still wants to be with Maddie, but he still has a say as to when, where and how! I also think he sees how passionate Maddie is about this case in particular. This could possibly be very puzzling to him and could make him think that Maddie may have viewed his double entendres and innuendo’s as harassment, but I don’t think so! But, I can’t blame him for bringing it up at the end of the courthouse scene, still somewhat insecure as to where exactly their relationship is going….as many of us are! We can feel good, though, that Maddie sets him straight in that regard. “Neil Fass was coming on to someone who didn’t want him to.” The near blushing smile and the acceptance of Maddie’s offer of partnership in the business makes Bert’s chart light up, sparks and all!! “Things are different now, but still the same” .
And there is Maddie. If you can’t see how far she has come since that first hello in the office, then you might try to arrange some extra tutorials with Bert and his chart! When I watch the scene where Maddie is reading the paper about the Fass case, I can’t help but compare her look of complete understanding and passion with the whole icy scene in the office when she first meets David in the pilot. Icy cold and downright “bitchy” at first sight! Don’t get me wrong, I have always kind of liked that about her. It is a quality that has helped her survive her own insecurities and tough situations. But here, she has a look of complete understanding for someone else’s plight. She has come from the edges of financial ruin, running the business end of a detective agency, learning how to actually detect while making a profit (mighty fine detecting crawling through the office ceiling, don’t ya’ think?! LOL!!), falling in love with a man she thought she was not suppose to be with, turning down a marriage proposal from the type of man she always thought she should be with, unplanned pregnancy and an unfortunate unplanned marriage, and a tragic loss of a baby that neither she or David ever recovered. Whew!! Has she grown and changed from these experiences? Absolutely! If anything, out of season 5, and possibly starting with “Flesh Was Made…” I can feel Maddie’s desire to right the ship with David. Where she has not changed is her desire to do so only under her own terms. Not so much a bad thing, mind you. Only, she has to figure out how to take that olive branch from David he has offered up on several occasions, kick off her shoes and run into his arms! She knows she is in the middle of a ladder and that the smart thing to do for both of them is “not look down”. I don’t see her avoiding her feelings for David anymore. The Avoidance game has played itself out with Maddie and it is about time! And she has the guts to crawl through the office ceiling to get the one-up on David. Who taught her to think like that? The same guy who knew he had better stick around the office that night because he knew he had taught her well!! The iciness, the compassionate heart, the desire for control of every situation, avoiding what her heart is telling her, all of these qualities will forever be with Maddie, only they have changed and they have changed her in ways she never imagined. And they are qualities that, depending how you look at them, have grown or all but disappeared.
So, satisfied or not with choices made and written in season 5, there are glimpses of growth and things have changed……but are still the same.
Grasping for straws?……yeah, well, everyone has their own way of coping! Thanks for reading and helping me cope!!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 18, 2009 13:08:20 GMT -5
Good Q’s, since!! Sorry I am late to the fray, but I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the mix. I am right there with most of the answers everyone provided, so I will not bore everyone with repeats( LOL!) Instead, I will bore you with my little “esseday” on Shirt and Skins. Feel free to scroll down to the next box at anytime! This is, imo, one of the highlights of season 5. For those of us who have analyzed, criticized and scrutinized our heroes in depth,…..and you know who you are…….we can look at this one episode alone and see character growth as if it has been charted and presented by Bert! And while we may not be completely satisfied with “where the relationship is going” between them, this show certainly reflects what they have been through and how they are coping at this point. Starting with David, we pretty much see that nothing has changed, but everything has changed! Just like the early ML days, he is still the wobblies hero in the office, both male and female, only now we see a reflection of the times----hello 90’s and the woman’s place in the work force! And while the men rally behind Coach Addison, I can’t help but feel that they really do not have a clue as to what is really driving Team Hayes! Is it the mere fact that David has challenged them in this little game or that the usual fence sitting Agnes has taken Maddie’s side in this one? Notice how David’s challenge is called off as soon as he sees that Bert and Agnes are suffering from it? Could it be that he feels the same way with Maddie? I think so. I believe the olive branch he extends to Maddie disguised as a dinner invitation everyone has been talking about is very sincere. Once again, his heart is right there on his sleeve. The last thing he wants is to drive something else between them. He is trying to meet Maddie half way again. Pretty big of him considering all of season 4’s angst and the declaration to Mr. Hayes in FNL that Maddie would have to come to him now. But yet, all the while, David does not relinquish his control of the situation. The little invite to dinner was his way of saying he is still there, that he still wants to be with Maddie, but he still has a say as to when, where and how! I also think he sees how passionate Maddie is about this case in particular. This could possibly be very puzzling to him and could make him think that Maddie may have viewed his double entendres and innuendo’s as harassment, but I don’t think so! But, I can’t blame him for bringing it up at the end of the courthouse scene, still somewhat insecure as to where exactly their relationship is going….as many of us are! We can feel good, though, that Maddie sets him straight in that regard. “Neil Fass was coming on to someone who didn’t want him to.” The near blushing smile and the acceptance of Maddie’s offer of partnership in the business makes Bert’s chart light up, sparks and all!! “Things are different now, but still the same” . And there is Maddie. If you can’t see how far she has come since that first hello in the office, then you might try to arrange some extra tutorials with Bert and his chart! When I watch the scene where Maddie is reading the paper about the Fass case, I can’t help but compare her look of complete understanding and passion with the whole icy scene in the office when she first meets David in the pilot. Icy cold and downright “bitchy” at first sight! Don’t get me wrong, I have always kind of liked that about her. It is a quality that has helped her survive her own insecurities and tough situations. But here, she has a look of complete understanding for someone else’s plight. She has come from the edges of financial ruin, running the business end of a detective agency, learning how to actually detect while making a profit (mighty fine detecting crawling through the office ceiling, don’t ya’ think?! LOL!!), falling in love with a man she thought she was not suppose to be with, turning down a marriage proposal from the type of man she always thought she should be with, unplanned pregnancy and an unfortunate unplanned marriage, and a tragic loss of a baby that neither she or David ever recovered. Whew!! Has she grown and changed from these experiences? Absolutely! If anything, out of season 5, and possibly starting with “Flesh Was Made…” I can feel Maddie’s desire to right the ship with David. Where she has not changed is her desire to do so only under her own terms. Not so much a bad thing, mind you. Only, she has to figure out how to take that olive branch from David he has offered up on several occasions, kick off her shoes and run into his arms! She knows she is in the middle of a ladder and that the smart thing to do for both of them is “not look down”. I don’t see her avoiding her feelings for David anymore. The Avoidance game has played itself out with Maddie and it is about time! And she has the guts to crawl through the office ceiling to get the one-up on David. Who taught her to think like that? The same guy who knew he had better stick around the office that night because he knew he had taught her well!! The iciness, the compassionate heart, the desire for control of every situation, avoiding what her heart is telling her, all of these qualities will forever be with Maddie, only they have changed and they have changed her in ways she never imagined. And they are qualities that, depending how you look at them, have grown or all but disappeared. So, satisfied or not with choices made and written in season 5, there are glimpses of growth and things have changed……but are still the same. Grasping for straws?……yeah, well, everyone has their own way of coping! Thanks for reading and helping me cope!!! This is good Bees, this is so good! Almost brought tears to my eyes just looking at the growth and the possibilities...
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 18, 2009 15:08:25 GMT -5
This is definitely off topic, but I just saw a trailer for next week's episode of 24. There is a slapping scene in the preview that definitely reminds me of D&M. See for yourself. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u90cQCKHV4Whoa!! It really does resemble D&M!! Ok, anybody think of tv shows today that will influence shows in the future like ML has? Did that question make sense?? LOL!! In other words, we know ML influenced other shows, whether parodies during that time or like "Bones" or "Psyche" of today or simply deciding whether or not two people should consummate a relationship due to the supposed effects it had on ML. What tv show of today will people look to as a model for what worked and didn't for a show in the future?
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 18, 2009 15:21:38 GMT -5
In life, the person who challenges you...who makes you go farther than you ever thought would be possible...is usually the person who brings out the very best...and the very worst in you. I like this!! Maddie challenges Dave.....Dave challenges Maddie....we see good....we see bad....we see two people that MUST be together!! Kismet.
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