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Post by marple on Feb 13, 2009 11:29:09 GMT -5
I love this Episode, especially the exchange between David and Mr. Hayes on the plane. I cried when David said gI would give up my life for herh after the whole mess he had experienced. I like that he doesnft put the blame on just her and that his attitude toward Mr. Hays is sincere. I really like those two men who love Maddie exchange heartfelt words each other. I like Mr. Hayes makes the good remark about being parents. He is an experienced father and still worried about his daughter. I like he shows deep understanding toward David when he knows what the problem between those kids is.
But I would say I had a trouble with Maddie in this episode and my feelings about S4 were complicated. As already said, Maddie looks weak and I donft like the fact the power between D and M went off balance. I always felt they were equal and this was one of the attractions of the show. As a big fan of Maddie, I tried to figure out her state of mind like gwhy did she cut off David?h. I always felt Maddie loved David even when she said bad things to him. I knew she was afraid of something. But where did this afraid thing come from? I wasnft clear about this. But thankfully diane, gorky have made it clear.
diane says: This is absolutely spot on, Gorky. I think the depth of the emotion that Maddie felt for David scared the living daylights out of her. She is so used to having calm and order in her life, and then, welcome aboard, Mr. Chaos. Her fears are very real to her...but if she used that orderly brain to analyze their relationship, and see what was RIGHT, she would realize all the wonderful things that happened to her, and how she had grown since meeting David. Instead, she keeps finding reasons why they WON'T work, and why he is not the right person for her.
And also gray's insights really impressed me.
Itfs sad that Miss Right couldnft realize how right Mr. Chaos (actually he is Mr. Heart) was for her. But I canft deny there is always conflict between D and M and in fact I really love to see how those two passionate boy and girl brilliantly get over it and come closer to each other in the every show.
Thanks everyone on this thread, I was really impressed by your observations and learned lots of new things! This is really a great place for ML fans!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 13, 2009 15:09:58 GMT -5
Does anybody think some of the conflict was caused by male writers versus female ones, and their personal experiences with the opposite sex?~ Diane As for the characterization of Maddie...well, let's just say that I think she would've benefited from a little bit of feminine editorializing. Because, for as headstrong and intelligent and independent as Maddie is, she still has a damsel-in-distress quality to her. I always get a little annoyed when Maddie just stands by and shrieks while David saves the day. ~ Gorky Gorky, yes...there is the damsel in distress thing with Maddie, there has to be, that's Dave's thing. He's the consummate "egg" as Gray put it, "hard on the outside and mushy on the inside". David to me, is more of what I would consider...Macho...he's fearless, got big "kahunas" yet at the same time he is a softy for her. {I think Bruce had a lot of input on the facets of David's character} Obviously, Maddie is no punk though~she goes to another country, by herself, to face the weasel. I think with David, she softens and that's why everything is so scary for her: She desires for him to take the lead but she doesn't trust his methods, so it's hard for her to completely let go. Maddie softens for two people, David and her Dad. That's why I think it's so interesting that Mr. Hayes goes to David without asking Maddie, assuming that David is her love interest. IMO, Mr. Hayes knows Maddie has always been tough; he knows Maddie is "her fathers daughter". For example, when we see her parents for the first time in EFDAV, Mr. Hayes says something to the fact that Maddie cussed like a sailor at her mother as a teenager. Mr. Hayes notices her demeanor with David, if I'm not mistaken, she stands closely by David (as she always does) when the parents come to the office. Any way, Maddie loves David's tough guy routine yet she, the office and the whole audience knows he's manly yet sensitive. David doesn't put his foot down and expect everybody to do as he says...that's Maddie! And not to sound gender biased but men generally are hard to sway when they make up their minds. David is all about choices, if only the right to the freedom in making them. Yes, he's going to try and persuade the other party to see it from his point of view but I don't see him as being all that forceful. The plane scene with Mr. Hayes is a perfect example...he is nervous, angry, yet helpless to have Mr. Hayes understand his plight. The depth of his emotional weakness in display is finely written and very convincing. And just in case I lent some illusion that there was some big ole conspiracy against Cybill (we are all very fond of her, I know but I'd been holding that since I listened to them); I don't necessarily feel that way...just to clear the air. Yet, IMO, there were options a show of this magnitude could have used to keep David and Maddie on screen together during Cybill's pregnancy. On another popular current show, I read somewhere they actually built a mini-set in the ladies bedroom at her home; just so she could do small scenes with the other actors. That would have been perfect if after the speech in FKL, Mr. Hayes returns home and in steps David behind him. There's no way Maddie would have been able to turn him away and her father brought him to her...just so many other options could have been expressed. {I can just imagine Mr. Hayes stepping into Maddies' room, gently waking her with a kiss on the head...she turning over to greet him...Mr. Hayes smiling slightly with his chin lowered to get her attention while saying..."I went on a trip today and brought you a souvenir" then David turns the corner, spinning on the door frame as if he raised the tree used to build it, attempting to hold a scornful demure, yet melting into smiles as he sees her...Maddie bracing herself while pulling herself into an upright sitting position...her facial expression changing from surprise, to embarrassment, to love, for both men in attendance } Then no Wally, no Annie, no LE (at least for another few years)...; yet the fiasco that became this strained relationship through poor writing and convictions in the COPO (court of public opinion) tried to steal their magic. Yet, I could see the way our stars looked at each other during scenes, smiled at each other, loved each other, their comfort level with each other...still, no amount of crap could take away that chemistry. PS~let's not forget that David has the heart to fight but he doesn't do it well, lol (sissy fighter). Maddie taught him how to throw a punch; he may have saved her sometimes but she beats him on a regular, since their first meeting. (Throws him against doors, snatches him by his tie, pushes him in the chest...etc, etc, etc, lol) So I guess, I see Maddie as a "volunteer" damsel in distress...
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Post by rose35 on Feb 13, 2009 16:33:03 GMT -5
I am possibly one of Ms. Shepherd's biggest fans, I own photographs (signed and unsigned, some rare pre-ML originals), her CD's, her movies, magazines ads etc...I have a scrap book (well scrap box now) that started 25 years ago (yes its enormous). I have more pictures of her in my phone then I do of my parents (Cybill - 123, Parents - Zip) Needless to say, I'd kick a brick about her...if I see them on the street, I'm bustin' heads with a Styrofoam cup! SINCEIFELL4U Thats awesome! I know how you feel, if anyone today asks me who my fave Actor/Actress are today it's easy:Bruce/Cybill. i try to see everything they are in to show my support of them, hey i'm a 38 year old happily married female with pics of them hung up in my walk in closet, i feel like 16 again when i did that in my old teenage bedroom too LOL That's why this place is so great! The people here are so great! Ok do you all realize this is the longest thread we got for the reviewing episodes so far? Ok just for fun speculation why do you all think Maddies parents, both of them assumed David was the father? Is it due to the only 1 time they met him? Did they notice something between them even when there really wasnt much yet ,Did Maddie talk alot about David by phone to her parents. Was it jusyt the way she acted once she ran home to them when David was mentioned by them,?Maddie didnt seem to be big on sharing alot with her parents so it always seemed so great how her parents picked up on that right away. Especially cause David wasnt a Sam type guy. They then thought David was a good match for her. Ahh i love talking about this stuff
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 13, 2009 20:15:25 GMT -5
And just in case I lent some illusion that there was some big ole conspiracy against Cybill (we are all very fond of her, I know but I'd been holding that since I listened to them); I don't necessarily feel that way...just to clear the air. Yet, IMO, there were options a show of this magnitude could have used to keep David and Maddie on screen together during Cybill's pregnancy. sinceifell4u
Yep, they definitely could have. It is all very puzzling, isn't it?!
BTW, whenever you are ready to kick some bricks let me know and I will bring the cups!!! ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 13, 2009 20:23:44 GMT -5
And just in case I lent some illusion that there was some big ole conspiracy against Cybill (we are all very fond of her, I know but I'd been holding that since I listened to them); I don't necessarily feel that way...just to clear the air. Yet, IMO, there were options a show of this magnitude could have used to keep David and Maddie on screen together during Cybill's pregnancy. sinceifell4u Yep, they definitely could have. It is all very puzzling, isn't it?!
BTW, whenever you are ready to kick some bricks let me know and I will bring the cups!!! ;D LMAO, most definitely Bees, the whole MoM (Masters of ML) or more appropriately ' essed crew is invited to defend our fair queen's honor, LOL!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 13, 2009 20:25:37 GMT -5
Ok just for fun speculation why do you all think Maddies parents, both of them assumed David was the father? Is it due to the only 1 time they met him? Did they notice something between them even when there really wasnt much yet ,Did Maddie talk alot about David by phone to her parents. Was it jusyt the way she acted once she ran home to them when David was mentioned by them,?Maddie didnt seem to be big on sharing alot with her parents so it always seemed so great how her parents picked up on that right away. Especially cause David wasnt a Sam type guy. They then thought David was a good match for her. Ahh i love talking about this stuff I am thinking about the morning that Mrs. Hayes tells Mr. Hayes. We only hear muffled voices for the most part while we watch MAddie listening in on their conversation. My guess is she told him what Maddie had said about not being sure who the father is, but that it could be David. Maddie never brought Sam up with her mom. I believe they liked David in EFDIAV and more than likely asked about him periodically like parents do!! ;D
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Post by lin212 on Feb 14, 2009 18:46:26 GMT -5
Ok just for fun speculation why do you all think Maddies parents, both of them assumed David was the father? Is it due to the only 1 time they met him? Did they notice something between them even when there really wasnt much yet ,Did Maddie talk alot about David by phone to her parents. Was it jusyt the way she acted once she ran home to them when David was mentioned by them,?Maddie didnt seem to be big on sharing alot with her parents so it always seemed so great how her parents picked up on that right away. Especially cause David wasnt a Sam type guy. They then thought David was a good match for her. Ahh i love talking about this stuff I am thinking about the morning that Mrs. Hayes tells Mr. Hayes. We only hear muffled voices for the most part while we watch MAddie listening in on their conversation. My guess is she told him what Maddie had said about not being sure who the father is, but that it could be David. Maddie never brought Sam up with her mom. I believe they liked David in EFDIAV and more than likely asked about him periodically like parents do!! ;D I think it will always be a puzzlement as to why Mr. Hayes assumed that David was the father. Maddie didn't reveal her dilemma about the identity of the father until later in the day after her visit to the doctor. Maddie and her mother didn't discuss the father in the bathroom scene. In fact, Mr. Hayes seemed clueless about their relationship when Maddie arrived in Chicago. Her father asks, "How is that business partner of yours?" Maddie glances at her mother who seemed to detect Maddie's discomfort at the question, but her father rambles on and on about David not being one to stick around for the long haul. And we sure know that Maddie didn't share anything with her parents during the time she spent with them. Mr. Hayes complains all the time that she won't open up to him and share whatever is bothering her. So, I really don't know how he would logically have come to that conclusion with such certainty. Probably another case of writers' license to get from Point A to Point B.
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
Posts: 210
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Post by 1987 on May 21, 2010 9:36:51 GMT -5
Everyone pretty much covered this flawless episode perfectly but I did have a few inserts:
I think that Alexander assumed David was the father for several reasons. 1. The thought of Maddie having multiple partners was aburd to his old-fashioned mind. 2. David clearly was important to his daughter. He was good-looking, charming and a challenge to her. Their chemisty was not lost on her parents and surely she mentioned David a lot in phone conversations to her parents. He was questioning her so directly when she first came home because he wanted to see if their relationship had developed into anything beyond 'business'.
Interestingly, I also felt that David and Virginia had a very sweet bond. They both liked each other very much and both understood the stubborn and difficult Alexander and Maddie personalities. It was slient between them but they had an understanding bond about this. David and Virginia were both about pleasing their partners before themselves. Always with a couple, one dominates the other in controlling things. With me, I control the finances, decisions regarding children, vacations, house plans, Saturday night planning, etc. My husband lets me do this because I keep things running smoothly and he is just not a planner. For Virginia and David, it's much easier for their partners to run things as long as they have them and their love.
Finally, I think that David had qualities that Virginia perferred over her own husband. David was not as selfish and probably would not cheat on Maddie if they married (unlike Alexander). And David saw Virginia as a very sweet, graceful, loyal woman - not really Maddie-like qualities to him. I loved this relationship and wish we could have seen more.
This next topic really wasn't approached in the responses. I thought that the 2 men were discovering and were fascinated with seeing another side of Maddie through each other's eyes. Here were the 2 most important men in her life who both knew her the best. Alex knew that only a certain kind of man could handle Maddie and he was intrigued by David. David, was seeing for the first time Maddie as a vulnerable little girl who needed her Daddy. I think he felt sorry for her and was very thankful she had her parents during this time.
I think both men were grateful for the other in Maddie's life. David was clearly a man who loved her with everything he had with no ulterior motives. That's all a father should want for his daughter. I think Alex left L.A. a little disappointed in Maddie and felt pity on David.
I think David went back to L.A. with a certain peace that this man would be taking care of Maddie during this difficult time. He felt she was in good hands.
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
Posts: 210
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Post by 1987 on May 21, 2010 9:44:47 GMT -5
One more thing: I always felt that the marriage 'proposal' probably happened spur of the moment by David. They were probably finished making love one night and he just blurted it out. Maddie, certainly not wanting a proposal to be like that, brushed him off, maybe even joking-like. Since she had recently been proposed to by Sam, she probably felt the question was a little redundant It doesn't bother me so much that we never saw it. I like to think there were a lot of important conversations we never saw with this being one of them. One line from "Eek! A Spouse" that I always think about is: "David, what we have goes beyond licenses and vows. It's in our hearts and in our minds. Only you know and only I know". I think these 2 had conversations and intimacy that they never had with any other person and that most people never get to experience with anyone. I feel this way about the actors Bruce and Cybill too. Both had very strong feelings for each other which made things difficult for them as things like fame, $$, marriage and pregnancies happened. They never hated each other but they got under each others skin for a good reason.
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Post by tattybytatty on May 21, 2010 18:14:29 GMT -5
. How perfect description of these two men felt after the conversation on the plane.
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Post by sandra on Sept 22, 2011 17:37:39 GMT -5
Finally I got to rewatch this wonderful episode. Where do I start?
No doubt that this episode - sorry, Maddie and Virginia - belongs to David and Alex (although there are some significant and sweet moments between mother and daughter). How awesome are these two??
I love how Maddie's father is determined now to take the initiative, finally knowing what had been bothering Maddie the whole time - and of course knowing that for his daughter that might be a bit difficult.
Alex's attitude is absolutely adorable: I love how, obviously, for Alex there is not the slightest doubt about who could be the father of his daughter's baby. Of course, David is probably the only man Maddie has talked about to her parents ever since she has moved to L.A., but I love that both Alex and Virginia never thought that David wasn't good enough for her daughter - at least didn't they show such an attitude, and I really don't believe they were that narrow-minded. Along with most of you I think that both parents had an instantly, instinctively liking for David when they first met him.
When Alex confronts David, I don't see any reproach for which he deserves the highest credit, and then we catch a glimpse of how alike he and Maddie are - when his first question is not "Do you love my daughter?" but "What is your plan?"
David screws this conversation up, but he can't quite be blamed for it I think - he's in an emotional state of emergency himself, and of course his hints that the baby might not be his, have to sound in Alex's ears like the words of a snake trying to slither out of responsibility, and of course it doesn't exactly help that Rita shows up...
I love to see that David wants to give up at first (give up on himself, as he said later) but then pulls himself together and follows Alex to the airport, with utter determination to set this right.
His speech on the plane - well, I don't think I can say anything about it that has not been said already, it's simply legendary and probably Bruce's finest moment. Every time I watch it, my heart breaks along with his voice, my tears well up with his, and I just can't breathe. I try, but i just can't. I can't really say anymore about it.
I love to see Alex's reaction to this - he lets him speak, and you can't read his face. But he's ready to take his word, even if the things that are said about Maddie are not exactly flattering, an amazing thing! And later, when he comes to David and offers him a drink and a talk, it reminds me highly of the final scene in LTITIM, when Maddie comes to David to apologize - that's what's so adorable about father and daughter Hayes - they're never afraid to say sorry when they've been wrong.
Alex's fatherly talk with David is very heartwarming, and his trust is too - he doesn't try to convince David, he leaves him alone to his thoughts, and he's proven right. David pulls himself and his courage together again and decides to continue trying.
I love the hug he gives Agnes, back at the office, and the final scene is just giving so much hope - the expression on his face when he opens that little book...
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Sept 25, 2011 8:06:05 GMT -5
Agree, agree Sandra! I adore this episode so much :-) On so many levels, Bruce is so amazing to watch, he moves from one emotion to another with such dexterity! When he is misunderstood by Mr Hayes (before plane scene), you can just visibly see his frustration all over his face and demeanor - I feel it right with him. His face just looks so lost, so desperate and so hurt- all rolled into one troubled guy.
Of course, and I've said it before, his performance on the plane is to die for! The fact that I've seen this scene so many times before and yet I still get a tear proves his worth- one hundred fold. The script writing is also golden here - it would have been so easy to over-write/under-write this scene - so good writing plus good acting = superb!
Oh and we're left with so much hope here! I always thought Alex would go back and paint this wonderful picture of what he found back at Blue Moon and Maddie would be utterly convinced...haha - if only! Of course, it wouldn't be ML without all the angst- of course once she gets David behaving just how she wants, she's not sure she wants that ('My Fair David' on a higher level) and we all collectively sigh at the screen.
Looking forward to the rest of your posts on season 4 Sandra xx
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Post by iluvdavid on Sept 25, 2011 9:17:44 GMT -5
I rewatched this episode last night. Of course, I remembered the scene with David and Alex on the plane but there were so many great moments in this episode. I love the way Agnes defends Maddie...I love David's face as she keeps hitting him. So many great scenes...
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Post by rose35 on Sept 25, 2011 14:48:08 GMT -5
Finally I got to rewatch this wonderful episode. Where do I start? No doubt that this episode - sorry, Maddie and Virginia - belongs to David and Alex (although there are some significant and sweet moments between mother and daughter). How awesome are these two?? I love how Maddie's father is determined now to take the initiative, finally knowing what had been bothering Maddie the whole time - and of course knowing that for his daughter that might be a bit difficult. Alex's attitude is absolutely adorable: I love how, obviously, for Alex there is not the slightest doubt about who could be the father of his daughter's baby. Of course, David is probably the only man Maddie has talked about to her parents ever since she has moved to L.A., but I love that both Alex and Virginia never thought that David wasn't good enough for her daughter - at least didn't they show such an attitude, and I really don't believe they were that narrow-minded. Along with most of you I think that both parents had an instantly, instinctively liking for David when they first met him. When Alex confronts David, I don't see any reproach for which he deserves the highest credit, and then we catch a glimpse of how alike he and Maddie are - when his first question is not "Do you love my daughter?" but "What is your plan?" David screws this conversation up, but he can't quite be blamed for it I think - he's in an emotional state of emergency himself, and of course his hints that the baby might not be his, have to sound in Alex's ears like the words of a snake trying to slither out of responsibility, and of course it doesn't exactly help that Rita shows up... I love to see that David wants to give up at first (give up on himself, as he said later) but then pulls himself together and follows Alex to the airport, with utter determination to set this right. His speech on the plane - well, I don't think I can say anything about it that has not been said already, it's simply legendary and probably Bruce's finest moment. Every time I watch it, my heart breaks along with his voice, my tears well up with his, and I just can't breathe. I try, but i just can't. I can't really say anymore about it. I love to see Alex's reaction to this - he lets him speak, and you can't read his face. But he's ready to take his word, even if the things that are said about Maddie are not exactly flattering, an amazing thing! And later, when he comes to David and offers him a drink and a talk, it reminds me highly of the final scene in LTITIM, when Maddie comes to David to apologize - that's what's so adorable about father and daughter Hayes - they're never afraid to say sorry when they've been wrong. Alex's fatherly talk with David is very heartwarming, and his trust is too - he doesn't try to convince David, he leaves him alone to his thoughts, and he's proven right. David pulls himself and his courage together again and decides to continue trying. I love the hug he gives Agnes, back at the office, and the final scene is just giving so much hope - the expression on his face when he opens that little book... Sandra, Im so happy you are trudging through season 4! You know you have support I'm so glad you got to see this one again! I so agree with you on this episode being an Alex/David episode! You really dont need Maddie/Virginia in it ! But yes the M/V scenes are really good! I truly love her parents! They may not see thier daughter alot and she may not tell them everything but they sure know her! I agree That Alex and Maddie are kinda like 2 peas in a pod. So true that Maddie is all about having a plan so of course Alex hits David with that line first no? Poor David feels like he is the bad guy no? And yes does get kinda low to hit Alex back with the fact that well hey i may not be the babys father. wow Alex did not like that huh? SO glad David went after Alex to th plane! he had to makes this right ,Daivd knoew this man was going back to Maddie and he couldnt have Mr Hayes tell Maddie what Daivd saud could he? SO yes the plane speech is truly Davids shining moment! Its it the best speech ever he has said,its all the thigns you mentioend and 100zx more thigns too! Adn i so wish with all my heart that Maddie coudl have heard it from David too or i wish Alex could have told Maddie once he got home and in a way told Maddie to kinda to go back home to David. How could she not of flown home then if she knew what David said and how he felt no? Yes also season 4 is Bruces season! He proves what an amazing actor he truly is and yes this is his best scene i think in whole series! I also love Alex believing David too and tryign to get David to hold on to how he feels adn not give up on Maddie. Yes Sandra It truly gives you hope no? Loved the scene at end too with Agnes and yes the Father book David takes out to read! SIGH
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Post by finefinegoodgood on Sept 26, 2011 9:59:12 GMT -5
I think there are a ton of great fanfic possiblities with season 4. In this episode alone. What if David follows Alex the entire way back to Chicago and had this conversation in their livingroom...and Maddie heard it! I think that would have been it for Maddie had she heard this speach. She would have been on the next plane home with David had she heard this!
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