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Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 20:34:04 GMT -5
Somehow David strikes me as the one who was always getting in trouble and exasperating dear old Dad. Yes--particularly with Tess (though we're not supposed to know that yet)...as others have mentioned, he seems to feel like he can't live up to his dad's expectations, and so it's easier just to have no contact at all with him. Hey--wait a minute--it's another permutation of the Avoidance game! Seriously, though, it's interesting that David is still reluctant to see his father, even when he has the trappings, at least, of a successful life: posh office, elegant partner, living in "glamorous" L.A....and yet in their exchange in David's office, it's clearly David Sr. who is more nervous and tentative (as though seeing David intimidates him)...hmmm, I'm gonna have to think about this one for awhile!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 20:36:38 GMT -5
Hey IBM: Interesting to see that we have our first big disagreement. I'm talking to your opinion of how Maddie treated David throughout the episode (kinda crapped all over him) and my version where she was the adult because Dave's head wasn't in the game.
Great to see how opposing viewpoints can come out in this board.....even though you are so SO wrong and I am absolutely correct.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 20:42:05 GMT -5
[Seriously, though, it's interesting that David is still reluctant to see his father, even when he has the trappings, at least, of a successful life: posh office, elegant partner, living in "glamorous" L.A....and yet in their exchange in David's office, it's clearly David Sr. who is more nervous and tentative (as though seeing David intimidates him)...hmmm, I'm gonna have to think about this one for awhile! Good volley jpen. Not sure why the avoidance factor either. I would think that Dave would LOVE to throw the job, the clothes, the watch, the Bimmer, and oh yeah, BLONDIE right in front of Pops to get his obvious approval. Interesting how at the first meeting he was pretty honest with his Dad on his relationship with Maddie as well. What an enigma. SIDE NOTE: One time on a trip to NYC, I was standing on a streetcorner opposite ABC Network HQs. A guy came up next to me and waited for the light to change. That's right kiddies, it was Paul Sorvino. Another brush with greatness....for Paul that is.
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gorky
1st Level
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 20:43:08 GMT -5
I think she initially makes an effort--before the party, she is genuinely concerned (and curious) about the state of David's relationship with his father. Then, at the party, she assures a nervous David that there's nothing wrong with his father marrying a younger woman (of course, she doesn't recognize that David is suspicious--she thinks he's merely upset about the age difference--but why should she? She has no reason to believe that David might have, say, slept with his step-mother-to-be. ). When David escapes to the bathroom--an embarrassing sight, and one that prompts Maddie to, as jpen said, switch gears to mothering mode--I think it's understandable that Maddie's ticked. After all, she's basically David's date--his actions reflect poorly on her (and, as has been established, Maddie is obsessed with appearances). I'm not saying she's right for being so cold to David in the wake of his confrontation with his father, but I understand where she's coming from. As for the garage scene: she is a little cold, a little judgmental--but that's just the way she is. And, like you said, IBM, she's motivated by jealousy. All in all, you make a good argument, IBM--it's great that you're so in-tune with David. I just had to say a few words on dear old Maddie's behalf, though.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Feb 3, 2009 20:56:28 GMT -5
Evening all! Great questions, Bees!!
2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies.
I loved her morning smile - it was a totally knowing smile, she was excited to see David and ready to banter. Her office smile was clearly another Maddie attempt at cheering the office staff and getting them into work-mode, but again, she doesn't pull it off (it reminds me of "I LOVE Mondays"..."We know.") I used to have a boss just like her - blonde and totally lousy in her repartee with the staff.
3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!!
I always assumed that she made at least part of that up - I never thought that she met new ones, she just doesn't strike me as the type. But yes, I do think she was in New York, shopping, eating and sleeping.
4. What do you make of David flat out lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father? And why do you think Maddie let him continue in his little charade for so long before calling his hand?
Poor David, he was so embarrassed about that. He was afraid that Maddie would see an exposed character flaw and disrespect him for it. I think Maddie wanted to make the point that it was important for his to talk to his father, and to back him into a corner with an exposed lie was effective in getting him to admit what was going on.
6. Why do you think Maddie is so curious about the woman David’s father is going to marry?
I think a curiosity about David's past - not necessarily a curiosity about the woman herself. I think she's interested in the family dynamics, as someone would if they were checking out a potential partner - David.
7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him?
Maddie was seeing it from an objective viewpoint, and not really understanding what this one-nighter meant to David. I think she was hard on him at first, but it seemed to do the trick - it did get through to him.
What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish?
I think that Maddie just couldn't get over the SCENE that David had instigated by crawling around on the floor etc. All she saw was a man who was acting inexplicably like an idiot at a family affair.
8. What are your thoughts as to the meaning of the title of this episode?
I interpreted it to mean that David does indeed rise to the occasion to stand by his father regardless of his own misgivings.
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gorky
1st Level
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 20:57:08 GMT -5
Aw, IBM, I had no idea. I'm sorry you feel that way. I've certainly dealt with judgmental people in my life, but I'm not sure anyone's ever measured up to Maddie Hayes in that department. And rest assured, we all love Dave here. And we're pretty fond of you, too.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 21:00:32 GMT -5
I'm back kittens. Had to take a shower because after an hour on the treadmill and eliptical I smelled about as bad as David did in the garage. IBM: You are listened to right here babycakes, any time, day or night. And NONE of us is judgemental. Well, of course we can take opposing viewpoints, but that's the fun of it! Here some off random thoughts I have on this episode: Cybill looked superb. The girl even can FALL great great. The writing was on par with the best of the series...."He taught me about shaving...about women...about shaving women". The several references to significant parts of the female torso. What a great source for pick up lines! Not that I would ever take part in that sort of activity, mind you.
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Post by lin212 on Feb 3, 2009 21:00:38 GMT -5
The garage scene is so emotionally complex. Yes, Maddie is angry and annoyed with David's actions 4 (3?) years ago, and totally not interested in the details of David's fling with Stephanie. BUT I can't help but feel that she doesn't want David to allow that incident to destroy the fragile truce that has been established between David and his father. After years of not speaking, they seem to be getting to a good place. It may be that Maddie doesn't truly understand how David feels about his indiscretion, but I think she wants him to put it in the past and move on. She is more concerned about the future. I too think that she was really sweet with David Sr. and wants to help foster their reconcilation. She doesn't want David to blow this chance.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Feb 3, 2009 21:03:36 GMT -5
[Seriously, though, it's interesting that David is still reluctant to see his father, even when he has the trappings, at least, of a successful life: posh office, elegant partner, living in "glamorous" L.A....and yet in their exchange in David's office, it's clearly David Sr. who is more nervous and tentative (as though seeing David intimidates him)...hmmm, I'm gonna have to think about this one for awhile! Good volley jpen. Not sure why the avoidance factor either. I would think that Dave would LOVE to throw the job, the clothes, the watch, the Bimmer, and oh yeah, BLONDIE right in front of Pops to get his obvious approval. Interesting how at the first meeting he was pretty honest with his Dad on his relationship with Maddie as well. What an enigma. Verrrrry interesting greycav and jpen... David seems to have a bit of a broken relationship with his father and therefore he feels that he never got the approval (since he referenced his father not being interested in him and Richie) and probably assumes that no matter how well he;s doing, he's still not going to earn his father's approval, even as a successful adult.
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Post by lin212 on Feb 3, 2009 21:06:16 GMT -5
When Maddie accuses David of being selfish, inconsiderate and childish, I always took it as if Maddie was telling David to get over himself, that he should be thinking about his father's happiness, not dwelling on his own miserable mistake. Basically - grow up!
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Post by lin212 on Feb 3, 2009 21:10:20 GMT -5
Another small digression - the bathroom scene. Somehow I find Maddie screaming at the top of her lungs and banging on the bathroom door far more embarrassing than David crawling around on the floor. At least he was fairly quiet. Maddie, in fact, made quite a scene.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 21:13:33 GMT -5
Another small digression - the bathroom scene. Somehow I find Maddie screaming at the top of her lungs and banging on the bathroom door far more embarrassing than David crawling around on the floor. At least he was fairly quiet. Maddie, in fact, made quite a scene. Yup. Agree with you on that one. Man, was she making a scene out there or what?!
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Post by callmeditzy on Feb 3, 2009 21:18:12 GMT -5
I know I've been MIA, but my real life dramas have been all-consuming! I'm glad I took the time out tonight, though, to re-watch this episode, as it's one of my favorites.
I don't have time tonight to read through the thread, so I'll just have to post my own comments and hope that I'm not just re-stating what someone else said three hours ago. I'm anxious, though, to see what everyone else has to say, so I'll definitely read through later!
Off I go...
1. What, if any, is the importance of showing an empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering before everyone else on the first day back from vacation?
It seems to me like a metaphor for the return of the show to the airwaves after the summer hiatus. On the one hand, I can see the empty Blue Moon office as the stand-in for the viewers’ empty living rooms (or at least dormant tv sets). The office is quiet and vacant and just waiting for the Blue Moon people to come in and give it life again, just as we viewers waited all summer for them to come back into our lives. On the other hand, I can see Agnes coming in and readying the place up, so eager for the fun to start as a stand-in for all the folks who worked on the Moonlighting production. It’s like Agnes’s excitement is just a representation of how excited all the folks behind Moonlighting were to get back to work and bring us a great show.
2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies.
When I see her little smile, I immediately think of the contrast between it and the one at the beginning of Gunfight at the So-So Corral. In that earlier episode, she’s just beaming, so eager to start work at her new enterprise. She’s kind of over-the-top in her excitement and earnestness and naivety concerning her hopes and expectations about what this new life will bring her. In this episode, though, her smile is much more subtle and is less about what she hopes is waiting for her at the office, and more about what she knows is waiting there for her. She’s not so naïve anymore. She knows all about the good and the bad of running Blue Moon and dealing with the employees and working with David in particular. After two years, she accepts and embraces it all , and is happy to be getting back to it. Of course, by now David has become an integral part of her life and I think a huge part of her smile is knowing she’ll soon see David. Again, though, her smile is small and kind of crooked because, as eager as she is to see him, she knows the headaches and challenges he’ll bring. Of course, that’s part of why she’s so eager for him to be back in her daily life.
3. Do you think Maddie spent her entire vacation in New York? And did she enjoy the time she was there? Did she actually meet up with friends and meet new ones? This is all speculation, I guess, but can be fun to think about!!
I’ve never really thought about this at all. I’ve always assumed Maddie did, in fact, go to New York, but that her visit wasn’t all that exciting or fulfilling to her. If she didn’t feel that way before talking with the newly-enlightened Agnes, she certainly did afterward. But now that I think about it, it’s possible that she sat around her house for part of the time, which makes even more sense when you think about how happy she was to be getting back to work: she was bored.
4. What do you make of David flat out lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father? And why do you think Maddie let him continue in his little charade for so long before calling his hand?
I think David lied to Maddie because he’s somewhat ashamed of the distant relationship he has with his father. He doesn’t want her to know that he’s the kind of guy who doesn’t want to talk to his dad or see him for years at a time. I think he wishes it were different. He wishes he and his dad could be close and have what he considers a “normal” father-son relationship, so that’s what he pretends in front of Maddie. I really don’t think Maddie let him go on with his lie in order to make it that much more of a “gotcha” moment when the truth finally came out. I think she was genuinely curious about what on earth was going on between David and his father, and whatever David was saying about him (even if she knew none of it was true) gave her some information or insight into David’s feelings about his dad.
5. David makes this comment at the pre-wedding reception about the age of his father’s future wife: “I don’t know. Richie and I were young and he was never interested in us.”
We discussed David and his brother Richie’s relationship last week. Knowing what we know about those two and this telling comment, what inferences/speculations can we make about the relationship between all three of them?
I wasn’t in on last week’s discussion (I’ll have to chime in soon), but this is the biggest question that still remains for me. We get that David and his father have a strained relationship and that David is nervous about seeing him and appearing “good enough” (ie. straightening his tie before entering his office). But we don’t get any real information about how they got that way, or what his childhood was like with him. I think it’s especially curious, because David Sr. seems like such a cuddly teddy bear. I imagine that he came into the office and charmed the pantaloons right off Maddie and Agnes. From Stephanie’s story of the night they met, it’s clear he’s a caring man (although maybe that came later in his life, once his boys were already grown).
The situation with his mother is even more confusing to me: is she dead? Are they divorced? What did David mean when he said he “didn’t happen to think it’s a bad thing” that Stephanie was quite unlike his mother?
6. Why do you think Maddie is so curious about the woman David’s father is going to marry?
I think at this point, Maddie feels pretty well-versed on David Addison. She knows what to expect from his personality and how to handle his quirks and idiosyncracies. Now that he’s become such a important presence in her life, she subconsciously wants to know him on a deeper level. She wants to know why he is the way he is and who and where he came from. She was very interested in knowing Richie and David Sr. and, knowing that David’s future stepmother is going to be a part of his family and, therefore, his life, she wants to know about her as well. Also, maybe she feels a little competitive because she likes being the only woman in David’s life and realizes that now there will be another one.
7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him?
What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish?
I’ve got two thoughts about this. At first, I was surprised that Maddie would be so dismissive of the enormity of the fact that David had slept with the woman who would soon become his stepmother. I would have thought she’d understand what an awkward, kind of squicky, situation it was. But I think that part of the reason she downplayed it and insisted that David should be able to “get over it” is that she was jealous. David had spent an amazing three days in bed with this woman, and she didn’t like thinking about it. She certainly didn’t like thinking that it was such a big deal that David is still thinking about it, four years later. She wants to believe it wasn’t so earth-shattering and life-changing, so she downplays it to David and insists he join her in stripping it of so much meaning.
I also think a part of Maddie did think David was being selfish and childish and I think the fact that she said she had “never been so disappointed” in another person was very telling. At this point in their relationship, she’s come to understand that what David seems to be on the surface is not the whole of who David really is. She’s seen the inside and has come to believe that he really is a caring, thoughtful, loyal man. She believes it so strongly that she’s let herself get closer and closer to him, and let him deeper and deeper into her life. So she’s disappointed that someone she really believes in would behave the way he’s behaving. And I think it makes her wonder if perhaps she’s been wrong to believe in him.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 3, 2009 21:28:27 GMT -5
Because I meant to mention this in one of my previous posts: the garage scene, in this episode, really does parallel the late-night scene between Maddie and David in "Blonde on Blonde". Only thing is, the roles are reversed. In this episode, Maddie doesn't want to think about David's past flings--at least not in any concrete, flesh and blood way--but he's forcing this information on her, and she's shocked, I think, by the vehemence of her response. I think it's physically paining her to picture David with another woman, especially when--like you said, jpen--he clearly enjoyed himself. It's the same thing in BoB: David doesn't want to consider the possibility that Maddie could want another person, need another person; he wants to be it for her, the same way she (eventually) wants to be it for him. OK, I'll play the black sheep tonight! ;D By golly, someone has to do that, no? ;D IMO, I think you are exaggerating a little bit. Sure, she's not enthusiastic to listen to the details David is giving her about his amazing night with Stephanie (who would be???), but I think that what really ticks Maddie in the garage scene is his (apparently) childish behavior. She sees things rationally, he, on the other hand, sees things emotionally. He has a problem, a moral problem, and Maddie doesn't understand it. She CANNOT understand his behavior, which, according to her, is unjustifiable. This is because they have different parameters, different viewpoint. They don't see the world the same way. They don't share the same values. Can you see the point I'm trying to make? ?? ;D Well, I admit it, it's not easy to explain this... BTW, this is just MY HUMBLE OPINION, OK? What do you think?
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 3, 2009 21:30:38 GMT -5
Good and thorough ditzy. One thing you mention that was brought out earlier was your opinion that Maddie was jealous, I suppose of Stephanie. It appears that a number of you ladies feel that Maddie had that vibe. I didn't get it. Disdain maybe, disgust probably, but I don't see the ice queen being jealous of one of David's one night stands, as memorable as that may have been to him.
She must know that if she wanted to join that club all she had to do was, well, show up naked...and bring beer. Heck I'd get by with a whoopie pie!
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