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Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 23:14:35 GMT -5
4. Maddie is a rational, yet superstitious lady. How do you explain her ambivalence? Ok this word always gets to me:"ambivalence". It reminds me of TTTM with David/Maddie in the car and her being ambivelent. GRRR LOL I kinda know what it means and then i dont. So that scene really irks me LOL i'll be glad when we discuss that episode LOL Get some insight on it! So Maddie in this episode: Shes is rational to a point, but then shes not. Shes does have weird views on things, shes too stubborn, David may be stubborn too but on different things, he's open in his beliefs and Maddie is closed on hers. Shes alwasy unsure and wont ever take that leap of faith. WOW we really are getting into these characters heads too much arent we? LOL well i guess to us this is FUN , to outsiders we are too obsessed! But i'm proud to be Essed with you all!
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Post by diane on Jan 15, 2009 0:07:29 GMT -5
This is one episode that I have always really disliked, so I am not going to subject you to my railing on the matter.
I just wanted to say that I think looking for any real continuity in the 5th season is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I am not quite sure that half of the writers in season 5 had even watched any of the previous episodes, so I think there was little chance of getting to the real meanings of David and Maddie's relationship, or to the heart of the matter about much of anything they had shared.
That sounds stark......but it's how I feel about many of the season 5 eps...including this one.
diane
I DO like the scene when everybody is whispering, and David comes in speaking in a normal voice, and they all scream...and then laugh...that is the one sign of life for me!
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Post by lin212 on Jan 15, 2009 7:53:08 GMT -5
You are so right about the scream scene, diane. There is something about it that is so genuine. Maybe it's the expressions on their faces that make it almost seem as if the whole thing was ad libbed.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Jan 15, 2009 22:10:13 GMT -5
I hope this thread is still open for latecomers to this week's rewatch! Since I share many of the sentiments that have been already been posted, I'll just mesh and piggyback on a few of the fabulous comments that folks came up with in response to IBM's thought-provoking questions. ...if you're going to do an episode about death and mortality, to totally ignore the fact that these two have recently been bereaved in a horrible, tragic way, is pretty irresponsible from a continuity standpoint (and I know, it's a fruitless argument, really, since continuity was NOT a priority that season). They didn't need to reference the baby's death in the car conversation necessarily, but I would've thought it might come up in at least one conversation or scene...even if it was just a look between them (or a look away from each other--as if they were avoiding talking about it). IMO. Within the context of the car scene, Maddie could have alluded to the baby by taking the position that all the bad things that happen to good people are evidence that a just God can't exist. This episode (and whole season!) was a series of missed opportunities. The loss of the child was (to me) the elephant in the episode so to speak, but this rewatch discussion has me reconsidering things a bit. At first, the fact that the death of a stranger appears to move Maddie to do more soul-searching than the loss of her own child appeared to, and said child appears to not even be attributed/acknowledged, appears to be egregious. Granted said loss could’ve weighted the mood of the episode and was already addressed to a degree in YUK, but it seems to still have a looming numbness over our heroine and I wonder if it's not responsible for the lackluster version of her throughout the final season. Taking her unique-to-season-five detached attitude into account with what ‘s been deduced from the dream and the fact we later learn she’s back in therapy, and we can see she is not as emotionally together than she lets on in her waking world. Maybe it wasn’t that the child wasn’t acknowledged so much as Maddie’s sublte avoidance of acknowledging said child?
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Post by beesnbears on Jan 15, 2009 22:46:10 GMT -5
"Maybe it wasn’t that the child wasn’t acknowledged so much as Maddie’s sublte avoidance of acknowledging said child?" moonbeemer
I truly believe had Maddie been written true to her character, and David as well, they would have long ago expressed their grief for the loss of their baby. Or at least would have worked through it more than BAYAAHP.
Yes, Maddie is the queen of Avoidance. But, to this day, the way I understand Maddie, I just don't feel we can assume that she was avoiding any kind of acknowlegement at this point, imo, of course!
Ok, I am not thinking about this one anymore!!!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Jan 15, 2009 22:57:55 GMT -5
Well, I still don't enjoy the nightmare scene, but thanks to IBMs research, at least I understand it better!! Same here (really appreciate all the preparation you put into this, IBM ). Overall, I believe it epitomized her confliction in regards to her struggles with her beliefs (or lack thereof), her desire for David, the loss of her child (another tie-in to the title & the root chakra SinceIFell4U brought to light) and feeling unfulfilled in her life. But for a show that so often & well pulled off subtlety, it seemed to miss the mark here, coming off as heavy-handed and hokie (there's that word again!) instead of reflective. The aim of this scene could've been achieved in a far more effectual, succinct manner that devoted more time to/resulted in some actual character and/or relationship development. As it stands, it seems odd and incomplete.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Jan 15, 2009 23:01:10 GMT -5
rose and jen, you are so right about the sexual innuendos. IMO, they are the best parts of this episode. And the way David gently brushes Maddie's hair back when she is in the hospital - it is so tender and loving - which brings up another continuity frustration. Only a couple of episodes later (Annie arc), David is spewing venom toward Maddie. Nuts! rose, I too agree that the opening scene is too childish for S5. The attempt to recreate S1/2 antics just doesn't work. I hate to say it, but Cybill's acting in this scene and the beginning of the next scene is just not convincing to me. Her anger at David and the boys is almost a fake anger. If she is supposed to be outraged by the 976 calls, where are the flashing eyes? Even some of her facial expressions are not those of the sophisticated woman we have come to know. Something is off. Lin, I'm glad you and others are talking to this because this episode represents to me how forced the show had become at this point. It's as if the people at the helm wanted to hit the reset button without any kind of resolution and it just didn't work. The writing and production were largely diminished and the characters (perhaps even the actors) seem less invested, with Maddie frequently disimpassioned and David a caricature of his former self. And as his old tricks fail to get a rise out of her, he resorts to upping the ante through Annie.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Jan 15, 2009 23:07:03 GMT -5
I truly believe had Maddie been written true to her character, and David as well, they would have long ago expressed their grief for the loss of their baby. Or at least would have worked through it more than BAYAAHP. Yes, Maddie is the queen of Avoidance. But, to this day, the way I understand Maddie, I just don't feel we can assume that she was avoiding any kind of acknowlegement at this point, imo, of course! Ok, I am not thinking about this one anymore!!! I'm glad you are still thinking (and responding - that's why I put it out there! I agree with you wholeheartedly, just trying to determine if the writers were trying to kill us with subtlety or just trying to kill us period!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Jan 15, 2009 23:18:46 GMT -5
What stands out for me the most about her dream is that in the midst of her panic where does she run? To Blue Moon and to David!! You know, neither of these had ever occurred to me...interesting he's beside her in life and death. Although, I thought he was rather menacing as the Reaper (kind of taunting as was asked of the title)...also of that choice, there's a 'reap what you sow' quality to that whole manifestation of Maddie's innermost battles and David represents a certain judgement aspect that is important to Maddie as far back to "do you really think I'm cold?" It is also telling that Maddie would choose the underworld instead of a more cloudfilled view of the afterlife.
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Post by jpen on Jan 15, 2009 23:29:31 GMT -5
The aim of this scene could've been achieved in a far more effectual, succinct manner that devoted more time to/resulted in some actual character and/or relationship development. As it stands, it seems odd and incomplete. Too right, MoonBeemer! Frustrating, ain't it? But that's Season 5 in a nutshell, to me...
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Post by jpen on Jan 15, 2009 23:30:49 GMT -5
I truly believe had Maddie been written true to her character, and David as well, they would have long ago expressed their grief for the loss of their baby. Or at least would have worked through it more than BAYAAHP. Yes, Maddie is the queen of Avoidance. But, to this day, the way I understand Maddie, I just don't feel we can assume that she was avoiding any kind of acknowlegement at this point, imo, of course! Ok, I am not thinking about this one anymore!!! I'm glad you are still thinking (and responding - that's why I put it out there! I agree with you wholeheartedly, just trying to determine if the writers were trying to kill us with subtlety or just trying to kill us period! LOL, MoonBeemer!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 15, 2009 23:33:29 GMT -5
Evening, Moonbeemer ! I'm truly happy you liked the research, too! Thank you!!! And...Everybody can join the discussions anytime! I'm enjoying reading your comments which are, as always, wise and extremely well written! I'm a fan of yours, you know... ;D Keep 'em coming! I always read your posts! About the marvelous writers who conceived the equally marvelous Season 5, look at this (BTW, I was shocked to find out there DID were writresses in the creative team! ) (oh, a question: can you say "did were" in English? Never happened to write that before...Sorry if I'm mistaken... Anyway, you understand my point) : 01- AWWAW: Glenn Gordon "The Creator" Caron My comment on this episode: why on Earth did he have to kill the baby?! Bah... 02 - BAYAAHP: Written BY Kerry Ehrin Now, this lady has written episodes like "The Man Who Cried Wife" and "Portrait of Maddie"... So now I'm asking: did she take a whack in the head the day before starting to write the above mentioned episode??? 03 - TCOM: Written by Barbara Hall....Who??? Yeah, Barbara Hall, born 17 July 1961, American writer and producer of television series. Never wrote a ML episode before TCOM. Her previous professional experiences? 1 ep for "Northern Exposure", 10 eps for "Newhart". The first is dramedy, the latter is Sit Com... Sit com! She had written 10 sitcom eps! Was she aware of the meaning of the word "dramedy"? No way, Jose! 04 - PFL: Written by Jerry Stahl From Wikipedia: Stahl’s books telescope the underbelly of dysfunction and isolation. His characters are people who for the most part suffer self-destructive behavior, straddling the line of addiction and self-debauchery.
His stories are distinctively stark, devoid of saccharine sentimentality, and always infused with pathos and humor.
To characterize Jerry Stahl’s work as cynical or dark is at best a misnomer and at worst a pedestrian observation. To the contrary, the world constructed in Stahl’s novels is a pastiche of modern life, unfettered, complicated, tragic and beautiful. There is loneliness, self-doubt and at times self-loathing. Sturm und Drang re-appropriated in a uniquely American voice.No comment. Stick around, I still have got someone else to badmouth tonight...
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 15, 2009 23:51:41 GMT -5
05 - SAS: Written by....Roger Director! That's why we like this ep! Right, kids? 06 - TMWFE: Written By James Kramer Who he? Wikipedia doesn't have anything on him. This guy never existed for the Internet. John Doe #1. 07 - I See England, I See France, I See Maddie's Netherworld: Written by Chris Ruppenthal You read my posts, so you know who this guy is and what he likes to write. What's he doin' here? And above all... Who hired him???08 - TLTL: Written by James Kramer & Chris Ruppenthal Ha. 09 - Perfetc: Written by James Kramer & Chris Ruppenthal Haha. 10 - WCG ( *shouting bad words right now*): Written by Merrill Markoe Now this lady is best known for her work on Late Night with David Letterman... Wait, wait! What are these bloodshot eyes of mine reading right now? This "lady" has got a website!! Master degree in Art (very pertinent to script writing, BTW)... "...abandoned her art teaching career and, much to the surprise of everyone she knew, began writing for television." And why didn't you stop her, guys? ?? So she paints, writes specs, writes books... And she's relatively unknown. This proves once again that one won't rise from the ranks if he/she hasn't got a goal in life. IMO. 11 - INO: Written by Mark Abraham Can't find anything on him anywhere on the Internet. Another John Doe. 12 - EKNM: Written by Barbara Hall See above (previous post). And now, the best episode of all times... 13 - LE: Written by... Ron Clark And that's our 3th John Doe of the evening! My conclusion: they wanted the ship to sink, so they put clumsy sailors aboard. OK, now I am through. I feel better now! Phew! This has been therapeutical!
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Post by rose35 on Jan 15, 2009 23:55:44 GMT -5
Ok IBM, when do you find time to study with all your ML research? LOL You should be like a teacher for College ML 101! Sign me up teacher!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 16, 2009 0:07:16 GMT -5
Ok IBM, when do you find time to study with all your ML research? LOL You should be like a teacher for College ML 101! Sign me up teacher! Signed up, dear! Nah, just kiddin'. I'm no teacher, Rose ! When do I find time? I sleep very little. Sleep makes me go nuts. I've got too many things to do... I hate idling. But fortunately, ML heals my tired eyes every time I watch an ep or see the blueness of this board...Or your witty posts!
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