Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 2, 2008 22:00:12 GMT -5
2. Do you think, if Maddie had been a little more receptive to David when they were dancing, that he would even have looked at Annie twice?
Back to this question...... D&M look like an old married couple. Why? Where did passion go? What happened? OK, they lost the baby, but that could've been a new starting point... But no, they look.....worn out. I guess Maddie brought it on herself, though. She's cold. Unfeeling. I'm sorry, but I really don't get it. She seemed to have developed that side of herself... I thought David had not wasted his energies to the effort, after all....
She looks.....sleepy. No burning flame of passion there. Again, like a bored married woman.
She takes for granted David will always be involved with her... a big mistake. Maddie seems an old lady: She sleeps in the car... Then, at home, (cheek) kisses David and hits the hay early in the evening, while David's still at her place.... He's a guest, damn it! Shouldn't she be expected to entertain??
And David...... He's a beautiful, young, red-blooded man. He's like a fast car, always has been.... The problem is Maddie. She was just like him!! Think about season 1 - 2 - 3..... But now she's slowing down.... Why??? I mean, she's just 38! Why does she act like she was a 60-year-old shrew??
Last Edit: Dec 3, 2008 8:32:39 GMT -5 by italianbluemooner
I really don't know what she expected him to do - continue pining over her? Of course, the bad part was that he chose her married cousin - not good.
I agree. Maddie brought it on herself. And I hate what she says to A***e during their liquid lunch: "I'm looking for an adorable, gorgeous, faithful, hard-working blah blah blah..."
Clearly Maddie does not know David yet. How can she say he's not adorable, gorgeous... He's capable of working hard (Season 4), if he wants to..... And yes, he can be faithful, if he knew Maddie is willing to commit.... BUT SHE'S NOT! Maddie is very superficial, definitely not a good judge of character. Once again, she has a bias against David. She just labeled him since day 1 and exploited his clownish side to free her instincts for a short time span. IMO. I mean, I NEVER EVER despised Maddie.... until Season 5. She starts saying they're pals, then she almost-kisses him in "Plastic Fantastic Lovers", then the shower scene in "I See England....", then the dual-directional lipus-lockus (LOL!!! That was hot or what!? ;D) And now this: "David and I are just business partners. We want it that way"... Maddie, dear, MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!! What an awful lot of clashing signals you're sending him!! That poor soul, who waited 5 months to hold you into his arms again, to be the father of your child....A saint!!
He's just trying to move on! What else should he do? No, according to me he's NOT a bad guy (sorry, jpen!). OK, he may be a little...piggish. I give you that.
He has this fling with A***e, Maddie's cousin..A married woman..... This IS BAD. And again I repeat: THIS IS NOT DAVID! THE WRITERS DID THIS. Maybe to make Maddie jealous, then to get her to declaring her feelings to him, once and for all.... But the series ended abruptly, and nothing of this saw the light etc. etc....We'll never know. The only thing I feel I can do is to formulate a judgment based on what I can see.
Conclusion: Maddie is the root of the problem. She does not commit. She's not interested anymore (so she says), then makes a scene, then goes backward.... In the meantime, the biological clock is ticking! What should David do? Hibernate himself, waiting for Maddie to take a decision?
I'm a girl and maybe I'm supposed to root for Maddie, but....I can't help it, I'm with David. I'm sorry, it's just the way I feel.
And I'd like to remind you a line David said in "The Man Who Cried Wife" which, IMO, sounds like a prophecy now:
"People who waste their time thinking things through are afraid of life. I mean, considering, and weighing the pros and cons, and making an educated judgment is just another way of making no decision at all. By the time you get through that junk anyone or anything worth waiting for is on to someone else anyway."
On to A***e.
I rest my case.
You can throw things at me now.
Last Edit: Dec 6, 2008 15:03:41 GMT -5 by italianbluemooner
Post by callmeditzy on Dec 2, 2008 23:13:28 GMT -5
Sorry to be chiming in late! I had some decorating to do at my parents' house and it went late. Anyway...
So many good points made already! I'll just dive right in, I guess.
1. Demi Moore. Like jpen, I don't remember this episode from when it first aired. I'm sure it was a matter of either not knowing there was a new episode or not knowing what time it had been moved to. Anyway, watching it now, it seems like a cheap stunt. Demi and Bruce were an It Couple at the time, and I think that's exactly the reason that using her was a bad idea. Don't get me wrong: I think if David just noticed her for a moment or two it would have been cute and funny and fourth-wall-breaky. But she was onscreen way too long, in my opinion.
Some have said that this scene shows that David is the "same old Dave", checking out hot chicks and there's nothing wrong with it. I agree! David always watched the beautiful ladies. But it was always a passing thing, whereas this was a prolonged interaction, which we hadn't seen from him before. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily, but I do think it's different from what we've seen from him in the past. And maybe, like others have mentioned, that was the point: to show that David is truly moved on from his feelings for Maddie.
But I do agree with beesnbears that, on some level, it's good to see him showing interest in other women. And that is pretty much the source of most of my pain when watching this arc and this episode in particular. I "love" David and Maddie and "love" them together. So the part of me that loves David feels like "Hell yeah, he should move on! She's given him no reason to believe that they have a future together". But that's in direct conflict with the part of me that loves David and Maddie together. Like Dennis Dugan said in Lunar Eclipse, I loved watching them fall in love. So seeing David behaving as if he's no longer in love with Maddie is heartbreaking to me.
"And I'd like to remind you a line David said in "The Man Who Cried Wife" which, IMO, sounds like as prophecy now:
"People who waste their time thinking things through are afraid of life. I mean, considering, and weighing the pros and cons, and making an educated judgment is just another way of making no decision at all. By the time you get through that junk anyone or anything worth waiting for is on to someone else anyway."" italianbluemooner
I thought the very same thing when we watched MHCW. I just wished Maddie had listened and learned.
"So seeing David behaving as if he's no longer in love with Maddie is heartbreaking to me." ditzy
You and about a kazillion other people.....I always tell myself that they ran out of time and could not turn things around.
Virtual Moonlighting folks........don't leave home without it!
Post by callmeditzy on Dec 2, 2008 23:32:14 GMT -5
2. I don't "get" this scene at all. There seems to be a disconnect between the words that are being said and the delivery of those lines. I mean, David does make some kind of overtures, but when Maddie doesn't respond in kind, he takes it in stride and it so casual about it. I feel like, if we were supposed to believe that he was really sticking his neck out and putting his heart out there for her, we should have seen more of an emotional reaction from him. It's not like Bruce didn't have the acting chops to show pain or disappointment - we saw that plenty of times from him! I don't mean to dwell too much on the "behind the scenes" issues, but it's hard to take what's shown on the screen at face value when it's so disjointed (like graycav56 said) and hard to "read". I just don't know if what we were shown was really David making a real overture or not.
I agree with lin212 that "Maddie's quick response told [David} everything that he needed to know." Whether his comments were meant as an overture or not, she dismissed it very quickly and casually. She didn't even flirt back or protest too much, like she would have done in the "old days"; there was no passion of any kind (positive or negative) in her response. Graycav56 was right when he said that "even the banter was bland".
Like jpen said, it was nice to see them at ease with one another. But at the same time, that ease seemed to signal that there was no conflict left between them. If they were together and there was no conflict, that could be great (maybe not great television, however). But if they aren't together and there's no conflict, that's not good. Because that means they're fine with not being together, which means they don't love each other anymore, and I just died a little inside just typing those words!
Finally, I like the assertion that this scene could have been a turning point for David and Maddie if it had gone another way. I hadn't thought of that before. Fanfiction, anyone??
5. Maddie in David's bed - I think that David was truly surprised to find her there. I think that the conversation might have ended up differently if Maddie had said "the right things". Of course, for us that would involve something along the lines of "I'm sorry. I miss us." But as soon as she started on David about the game he was playing and accusing him of being mad at her, trying to get back at her, etc., that was the end for David. Initially he was ready to listen to her, but not after she started her attack. So, I think that Maddie was hostile first which pushed David into his defensive position.
lin212, we're definitely in sync tonight!!!! ;D
Maddie was the hostile one, NOT David. She thinks she knows him so well....God, she's so snotty! And a little scared of losing him, because she finally realizes she's not in control anymore. As I said before, she had given for granted her "relationship" with David would go on forever... And BTW, she said to her shrink she had a "manageable relationship".... WHAT RELATIONSHIP??? Are occasional kisses and hugs worth calling "relationship"? IMHO, no. Anyway.... the situation slipped out of control. That's why she goes to David's. To regain control. But... she does not know what to say. Because she said so many lies - to David, to herself - she does not know the truth anymore. Does she love him? Are they just business partners? Is David trying to get to her attention by using A***e? Does David want to hurt her, to take revenge for the hell hole he's been thrown into (Season 4) ? SHE DOES NOT KNOW. She's still confused... After 5 years she's still confused. IMHO, this goes beyond the pale.
Like someone said on another thread, the writers wanted Maddie to get back to her "iciness". Well, they did it. This is the kiss of death to our favorite couple.
Post by callmeditzy on Dec 2, 2008 23:55:34 GMT -5
3. Hmmm...it's hard for me to pick a villian. I mean, David and Annie both behaved in ways that were "wrong" and certainly hurtful to other people. In some ways, I fault Annie more because she was cheating on her husband, and with somebody that she knew her cousin had a complicated relationship with. I hadn't thought, before tonight, about the many choices she made deliberately that led to David and her hooking up, but jpen's list made me see a lot of it.
But David isn't blameless, either. One, it takes two to tango. It's not like he was helpless and defenseless against Annie's feminie wiles. Two, he knows how much being with Annie hurts Maddie. And he does say some pretty hurtful things to her and about her, which is insensitive at best and unkind at worst.
On the other hand, he and Maddie are not together. She hadn't given him a real reason to believe there was any kind of future for them in that department, so why shouldn't he enjoy the attention of an attractive, personable woman who actually seems to want to be with him? I mean, what a nice change from the way Maddie often seemed disgusted at the thought of being with him.
Of course, there's the issue of Annie being a married woman. She is clearly wrong to be cheating, and he's clearly wrong to be helping her do it. But this is where the Behind the Scenes issues (mostly of the writers wring the characters inconsistently and with no regard to their histories or established personalities) have to come into play. Because David Addison would NOT get involved with a married woman without a second thought of the moral implications. He just wouldn't. We can take it at face value and decide that David was acting completely out of character for a reason, but that reason wasn't clearly explained. We could guess that it was because he was hurt by Maddie or because he wanted to hurt her, but I don't feel like that was portrayed on screen at all. And I feel like if that's what we were supposed to see, it would have been clear (like the way the attraction and heat between David and Annie was made clear).
I think Annie's actions were more "wrong", but David's actions hurt me much worse. Because, even if you take out the "wrongness" of his affair with Annie and the way he treated Maddie, he seemed over Maddie and I hated seeing that. Because part of what made David "David" and what made us love him was his love for Maddie. When it seemed like he didn't love her anymore, he didn't seem like the same guy we fell in love with.
This episode depresses me to no end. I can't wait until next week's episode! I don't even know what it'll be but I already know it won't make me want to jump off a bridge so that's a start!
If they were together and there was no conflict, that could be great (maybe not great television, however). But if they aren't together and there's no conflict, that's not good. Because that means they're fine with not being together, which means they don't love each other anymore, and I just died a little inside just typing those words!
Exactly. No love, no bantering..... What's left to watch? David and Maddie were murdered. It was telecide. I just hope they didn't plan it.
"Maddie was the hostile one, NOT David." Despite all of the mixed signals Maddie sent David from AWWAV until this episode, I always thought that Maddie did try at times to make it up to David for the things she did. The occasional kiss, the flirting, etc.. i know it was not much, but it was a start for a very stubborn, strong-willed woman!!
"And a little scared of losing him, because she finally realizes she's not in control anymore." That control thing gets her every time, doesn't it?!?
"As I said before, she had given for granted her "relationship" with David would go on forever... And BTW, she said to her shrink she had a "manageable relationship".... WHAT RELATIONSHIP??? Are occasional kisses and hugs worth calling "relationship"? IMHO, no." Remember the middle of the ladder and not knowing how to get off? I see this as a way for her to try to start over with David. Slowing down and trying to recover from all the stuff they had been through. just don't look down.....
"But... she does not know what to say. Because she said so many lies - to David, to herself - she does not know the truth anymore." Yes, the lady lies....we established that last time I think. Maybe not intentionally, but she does slip them in. She even lied a little to Sam when she came home that morning in MTTC. This all has to do with her avoidance (with a capital A) of matters of the heart. Instead, she replaces emotional need with the need for control.
Okay, I know it sounds like I am taking up for Maddie, but that is because I am!! I will always feel that deep down she does have a heart of gold and is truly a genuine, likable......and lovable person.....and is capable of loving others. Her iciness and her other quirks, flaws, faults, are exactly the things that David fell in love with. IMO, of course!!