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Post by beesnbears on Dec 6, 2008 21:56:57 GMT -5
And even if it truly were over between Maddie & David, (for it is plain to any fool that it is not, despite their thick skulls and declarations to the contrary) moonbeemerI never thought it was over with them either........still don't! He seemed both familiar and different to me all at once. It was good to see some of his trademark non-conformity and edginess restored, but not at the expense of undermining his character, Maddie, their relationship and the entire series in the process (don’t even get me started on the inconsistency presented in his complacency in being ‘the other man!’). moonbeemerEXACTLY!! Take away the "soap opera-revenge-make Maddie pay idea". I can understand this theory. But, to miss the mark on David's character as we grew to understand it (because THEY wrote him the way we know him)..........unexcusable!!! As for Maddie, those who talked to the apparent aging of the character and her tendency to take David for granted were right on target. Perhaps here more than any other episode, we see the detached, indifferent, watered-down, doormat version of Maddie that’s been occurring throughout this season (and as early as the 3rd). Oh how I miss the spirited Blondie-Blonde of season two who would not have stood by and let things unfold as they did the last couple seasons (and I’d gander David does as well)! moonbeemerEXACTLY!!! They completely missed the mark again with Maddie......unexcusable! Including the physical features we have talked about.......looking tired, etc..... While David is culpable for his actions & decisions, many of them are correlated to Maddie’s…she has long insisted on keeping their bed made and now she is literally lying in it…alone. moonbeemerEXACTLY!!!! Which is why we kept coming back for more. As infuriating as it was, or is, this aspect of the writing has kept us here, 20 years later, talking about made-up beds!! Good stuff moonbeemer!!
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Post by rose35 on Dec 6, 2008 23:05:03 GMT -5
I just wanted to welcome Moonbeemer into the group! What great great posts you have put on this thread,. We just can go on and on about this episode can't we? LOL
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 7, 2008 5:36:14 GMT -5
While I think there was a physical attraction between he & Annie and the two seemed to have developed genuine feelings for each other (or at least what the other represented) by the finale, I just didn’t see the chemistry between the two that he had once shared with Maddie and I think, in the long-run, that David requires that kind of energy and challenge (however exhausting it may be) to feel fulfilled. I agree with you, Moonbeemer. There was ZERO chemistry between David and *A*. She's not the kind of woman who tickles David's curiosity....Maddie is! Maddie is his favorite brainteaser...David can't do without it. A***e is just a surrogate, a hobby... I think David needed to prove to himself he still was a man, you know... That he could still woo a woman and win her by the mere power of his charisma... BTW, watch the car scene with A***e, near the end of the episode: he's sooo excited when she tells him he's a very sexy man!!! I think that at this point David needed to hear someone say those words to him. Maddie never did. GREAT posts, Moonbeemer!!! Keep 'em coming!! -------------------------------------------------- Ehm, people *clears throat*.... Since many find fanfiction is needed to this end.... And since I've been generously offered some help......... I'd be glad to take a crack at rewriting WGC!! What do you say?
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Post by rose35 on Dec 7, 2008 10:47:25 GMT -5
I myself will read any F/F! To me there can never be enough F/F on ML , Bring it on! LOL
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 7, 2008 11:33:02 GMT -5
Of course, her foil is MUCH younger in actual age...even though the writing leads you to believe that they were somewhat close in that matter. Cybill as we all know was born in 1950 and Virginia was born on September 11th 1961. Over 11 years is a big difference for even the most beautiful women...of which Cybill CERTAINLY qualifies to this day.
Hey Graycav, I am confused about what you are saying. I know Bruce/David was/is about 4 or 5 years younger than Cybill/Maddie. Not sure what you mean about her mother Virginia? Are is it one of your jokes and I don't have a clue?!?! I am with you though on Cybill's appearance in S5. Despite the 90's look I think they could have done a much better job. Proof is in her show "Cybill" later in the 90's. She looks great then........and now! and she is so funny!!
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Post by rose35 on Dec 7, 2008 11:51:08 GMT -5
hey Bees , i think he means Virginia M. as in Annie LOL
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 7, 2008 11:57:10 GMT -5
OH, HER!!!! Boy, I really did not have a clue! Thanks for clearing that up rose!! Nevermind graycav!!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 7, 2008 21:15:54 GMT -5
Great observations, MoonBeemer--particularly about the "one-upmanship." I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective--i.e., that she sees David as a trophy in her competition with Maddie, but it makes sense. Remember her comment at lunch?: "I had forgotten what it was like to go out in public with the 'Blue Moon Girl'." If she was really just looking for a "bit of fun on the side," surely she could have found someone else. Lovely--yet another reason to dislike and despise her! As if we needed another! lol Actually, the one-up-manship aura may be more prevalent in the subsequent episode, but there are overtures of it here and, in all fairness, it’s not all Annie-sided (more on that when we get to EKM). At times, she and Maddie remind me of teenagers in their girlish behavior (here, for instance, in wrestling for the phone, the 2 o’clock guy check out, giddily stumbling into the office, prepping for the night out, etc) and upcoming locker room- like tales (it’ll be interesting to see David be the one objectified for a change!). But, what most gets me about the dynamic there, is that Maddie constantly gives Annie a pass yet condemns David. This episode seems a culmination of the critique and condescension she directed toward him throughout the season, befitting of her more matronly look and behavior.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 7, 2008 21:28:41 GMT -5
As infuriating as it was, or is, this aspect of the writing has kept us here, 20 years later, talking about made-up beds!! Yes, sometimes because of the writing...and sometimes in spite of it. No matter how far off-base the writing and/or characters were at times, we couldn't help caring about and rooting for those two kids. And even if the latter years of the show paled in comparison to the earlier ones (and we kvetch about it to this day), all things considered, it still was one of the best shows to ever grace the small screen (in my "essed" opinion, of course ).
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 7, 2008 21:54:34 GMT -5
I agree with you, Moonbeemer. There was ZERO chemistry between David and *A*. She's not the kind of woman who tickles David's curiosity....Maddie is! Maddie is his favorite brainteaser...David can't do without it. A***e is just a surrogate, a hobby... Yep, I'm thinking David's relationship with Annie was largely born out of his bitterness where Maddie was concerned - when he first questioned Agnes about who Annie was, you could almost see him plotting, when he's with Annie he seems to make many things a referendum on Maddie, and he also seems to derive as much pleasure (if not more) out of getting a rise out of Maddie for his being with Annie as he does just being with Annie. I still find Maddie & David far more enthralling in their exchanges even at this late stage (especially in the heights of their Annie dissention) than whirlwind David & Annie ever were. And goodness knows, destiny wasn't exactly giving him a massage when he first saw Annie. Very good points here yourself! Also, in the earlier car scene, when Annie said that she liked that David didn't take himself too seriously, he seemed surprisingly pleased...same when she finds his jokes actually amusing and not stupid. Whether he liked it or not, Maddie's opinion mattered to him and these were aspects of him that she didn't fully appreciate. I think this may have effected his confidence some and there are times that Annie helped restore it, interestingly in the very areas Maddie left devoid.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 7, 2008 22:06:37 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the warm welcome and listening to me vent! I so enjoy the thoughtful discussion put forth by everyone here and only hopeI can contribute an ounce as much of that insightfulness in return!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 7, 2008 22:21:21 GMT -5
You know, this entire episode started off totally disjointed. At the end of the previous show, Perfec, David and Maddie were to head to Paris....however this was totally ignored. So it was at the end of the run. What a lost opportunity and shame that the show wasn't allowed to exit gracefully (and satisfactorily) with some Parsian remote throwback to the show's roots featuring humor and romance interwoven with an intriguing mystery that strikes enough realization & sense into Maddie and David to put them back on the right track. That would've made for an infinitely more acceptable finale.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 8, 2008 4:47:50 GMT -5
But, what most gets me about the dynamic there, is that Maddie constantly gives Annie a pass yet condemns David. This episode seems a culmination of the critique and condescension she directed toward him throughout the season, befitting of her more matronly look and behavior. Good observation, Moonbeemer! About this issue, I think Maddie's reaction is ambivalent: First she tells David she thinks he should see other women, but not Annie because she's married (but David won't listen to her...), then she finally spills the beans with Agnes, implying she's jealous of David and Annie (or jealous period), thus admitting her feelings toward David.... Then, when Maddie catches them in the act, she gets mad at Annie and names her "sugar tart"... Finally, at David's place, Maddie labels him "Cromagnon"!! Well, I take it this means she's "a trifle" confused...Don't you think? In my (scanty!) experience, I happened to notice that people who can't figure out how to manage a thorny problem involving emotions tend to rage against the object of their discontent. The grim reality is that those people are torn with guilt......They know they brought that predicament on themselves... They know they're angry at themselves...... Nevertheless, they pass the buck to others. It's easier. In this way, You don't have to face your inadequacy. What a lost opportunity and shame that the show wasn't allowed to exit gracefully (and satisfactorily) with some Parsian remote throwback to the show's roots featuring humor and romance interwoven with an intriguing mystery that strikes enough realization & sense into Maddie and David to put them back on the right track. That would've made for an infinitely more acceptable finale. That's what Fanfiction is for! P.S. Thanks for the diminutive, Moonbeemer! "IBM" is far easier to key in than the original!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Dec 8, 2008 8:57:25 GMT -5
Hey Moonbeemer! Interesting avatar of the Bimmer sitting alone at the side of the road. What made you choose that one?
(I think it is a COOL picture by the way.)
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 16, 2008 19:24:27 GMT -5
Very much so, IBM. I think that conversation with Agnes was a clarifier for Maddie and the fact she even moved to bring him dinner route was a renewed effort from Maddie on the David front...if only her cousin hadn't beat her to it! Ooo...deep. Are you studying that "psycho-mumbo-jumbo" too? If any of the storytellers here want to run with it, they have my blessing! "IBM"...it's not just for computers anymore!
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