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Post by callmeditzy on Nov 11, 2008 20:02:22 GMT -5
Round Three, here we go...
These are the questions I've come up with. Please feel free to add any of your own!
1. Maddie is often characterized as being cold, but she seems genuinely excited for MacGillicudy when she first hears of his marriage and even hugs him. How would you describe Maddie’s relationship with the employees?
2. Why do you think Maddie is so angry with David throughout much of this episode? It seems to go beyond simple philosophical differences that, by now, she should be fairly accustomed to. What do you think is behind it?
3. In the scene in Maddie’s office that ends with her slapping David, what do you think is David’s motivation when he says such mean things about the “crap” underneath her “attractive” exterior?
4. The kisses at the end of the episode mark the second time that David and Maddie have dreamt or fantasized vividly about kissing each other (the first, of course, being during The Dream Sequence Always Rings Twice). How would you describe the differences between the two sets of fantasies, and to what would you attribute those differences?
5. The interactions between David and Maddie in this episode cover a wide spectrum of emotions. Which interaction, or scene, do you like the best, or find to be the most significant?
Rhetorical Questions:
1. What kind of a dentist asks a patient if they’ve been brushing? Flossing, I understand. But brushing? Who doesn’t brush?
2. Is Jim Brower seriously cracked, or what?
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 20:14:04 GMT -5
Good ones Ditz!!
MacGillicudy's marriage: I think Maddie was genuinely happy about it at first, until she started asking questions. Anybody notice how David watches her excitement with the employees and how he starts to pick up on her feelings when they begin to change? Her relationship with her employees is distant at best and she knows that David is their hero!!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 20:28:43 GMT -5
Hi everybody! Here's my set of answers to tonight's questions:
1. I think she mostly ignores them and has general disdain for them (she never thinks they're working, and they usually aren't), save for Agnes and Burt. But she does seem to get excited over certain things...Mondays...weddings...um that's all I can think of.
2. Maddie is incensed over what she views as a personal attack from David - she's defending her own meandering way of thinking things through. On top of that, she views David as being really irresponsible and thoughtless, and therefore she's right and he's wrong. She escalates into furiousness when she suspects that he would defend a man who hit his wife, and for her, that's a new layer of 'irresponsibility' she chooses to see in David.
3. David is so frustrated by her at this point that he's willing to sink to a lower level of insult. He's saying that she's shallow and doesn't have a shred of tolerance for the plights of others. Kind of similar to the conversation they had about Lawrence Everett, when he calls her on her inaction - he's always trying to make her see that there's another side to her 'correct' way of thinking.
4. I think that the fantasy in this episode were more of an apology of sorts - a hot apology! The ones in "Dream Sequence..." were super hot too, but they were based in desperation and secrecy.
5. I thought it was real!
J
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 20:28:52 GMT -5
GREAT questions, ditzy! I'm gonna have to ponder on these for a bit...
But here's my top of the head response to #3--
I think David is SO frustrated with Maddie. From his perspective, she pulled rank on him when she told him they were not going to help Jim Bower, and then excoriated him when he came back for not respecting her wishes. Both in the car and later in the office, she refuses to listen to his reasons for wanting to take the case, or to admit that the work he (David) has done has any merit at all.
I think that when he comes back to the office, David just wants a fair hearing from her; when he doesn't get it, he just falls back into judgmental mode--"You're a pain in the you-know-what, rigid, impossible to work with", etc. I can't blame him for being angry, but I do wish two things: 1. That he had apologized later--the comment was a low blow, and he really hurt her 2. That he had tried to uncover what was really bothering her--WHY did she have such an angry reaction to what Bower had done, and why was she so determined not to take this case?
Maybe that's asking for too much...
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 20:35:23 GMT -5
Ooh..I like Manitoba's answer to #4--a very HOT apology!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 20:39:43 GMT -5
Thanks, jpen! I really think that every time they encounter on of these moral conflicts, David manages to move her a little further from her logical side. There almost always is that moment when Maddie acknowledges that she's willing to accept a different idea. I think that David teaches Maddie far more than she ever can teach him.
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 20:53:21 GMT -5
Maddie's anger: This is gonna be long....sorry!
IMO, this is a huge factor in this episode. In a nutshell, David has exposed her way of life and maybe she does not truly like what she sees. It is about her being happy at this point in her life and what or how has she done things to achieve happiness. Has she led a "passion" filled life thus far? And maybe, just maybe, she may be a little jealous of the fact that someone like MacGuillicudy can just reach out and grab happiness without a second thought........maybe!!
The first argument in the office goes from making decisions with forethought to the old spontaneity thing! And it begins to reflect how Maddie makes decisions most always with her head instead of emotionally with her heart.
David says that a person who always weighs pros and cons is simply running away from life or afraid to face what your heart is telling you.....ouch!
“by the time you wade through all that junk anyone or anything that is worth waiting around for is on to something else anyway”…. When did we hear this last? TNMYH when Paul McCain says a relationship is just something people are involved in until something better comes along. Funny, but this is the first time that I have ever connected these two things together!!
“Theres nothing wrong with weighing the pros and cons”…..Maddie
“Well theres nothing great about it either”….David
Hmmmm........
The second argument is when they are getting into the car after the realization that Mr. Bower actually lied and killed his wife by striking her. It is about defining passion: David relates passion to spontaneity; people do and say things they would not ordinarily do…reacting emotionally. Maddie relates passion to romance and love and being spontaneous is an excuse for poor behavior and decisions. She is LIVID!! but, it is funny when she grabs David's tie and pulls him into the car!!
SO, I see Maddie's anger fueled by the fact that David has exposed what would be an area in her life that could be improved and she realizes David does this for her.
Phew!!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Nov 11, 2008 21:03:45 GMT -5
And maybe, just maybe, she may be a little jealous of the fact that someone like MacGuillicudy can just reach out and grab happiness without a second thought........maybe!! I absolutely agree with beesnbears on this whole jealousy-anger connection. She is so totally jealous and because of David pointed out of her innate flaw, she realizes that her constrictive way of living is causing her to miss out. That's why I love how this EP ends, I would have even thought it would have been more poignant if Maddie was the only one who fantasized about a kiss. J
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 21:06:52 GMT -5
Why does David say what he says in the slap scene?
The third argument and the most intense is again in the office where all of this has become a battle of wills between 2 very stubborn people. At this point David sees their difference of opinion is based on the the fact that Maddie does not like men who hit women period.....no matter the reason.....and none should......( to be clear I do not think David condones this type of behavior) and their difference in how to define passion in a relationship. He sees a chance to make money for Blue Moon, but there could be a tad bit of him wanting to assert himself and make a decision on his own without her telling….ordering.... him what to do. It is again an example of the unstoppable force/immovable object and the two collide in a full blown slap.
IMO, I do not think he was trying to be mean. He was trying to control his anger at the time where Maddie was not. And he was frustrated by the fact he could not seem to get her to understand his definition of passion in life. She's a hell of a lot of work to get her to understand......and she has too much crap floating around in her head that keeps her from making decisions full of passion and emotion.
“You don’t believe in spontaneity and you damn well don’t believe in passion”
Does this make any sense!!??
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 21:12:19 GMT -5
The kisses:
The difference for me in this episode is the fact that Maddie has taken a step in following her heart and desire with PASSION....desire.....spontanaeity.....
The Dream Sequence was a dream.....the other was almost real!! LOL!!!
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 21:16:39 GMT -5
I think the most significant argument or scene was the first one where David tells her “by the time you wade through all that junk anyone or anything that is worth waiting around for is on to something else anyway" and “the best parts of life are things you don’t have to think through". This is where Maddie refuses to see the light, but eventually comes around....somewhat! And the kisses.....very significant!! LMAO!! Jim Bower is ON crack!!
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 21:39:07 GMT -5
Wow, bees you've just about covered it...but I still can't help thinking that Maddie's anger is out of proportion to the circumstances. They've had criminal clients before, even ones that killed their wives (remember Tupperman?)...so why is Jim Bower VILE enough to make her lose it??? (To be fair, I guess, remember her initial reaction to Paul McCain's death? "He got what he deserved"--way to make the moral judgments, Maddie!) I do agree that Maddie is partially so angry because David has, once again, exposed an area of her life in which she is not fulfilled...and perhaps has never been fulfilled. The fact that he continually does this makes her feel very vulnerable (and the fact that she's so attracted to him doubles that feeling), and maybe cornered too. She says to him, in the first argument: "Just what are you accusing me of?"--she is on the defensive, and comes out swinging, even though David's comment wasn't specifically directed at her (though it was clearly meant to apply to her). OK, but to go back to the scene in the car. In the car, she is (almost literally) spitting mad--on the verge of being totally out of control. The look she has when she says "...or hitting someone they have no business hitting" is venomous, and her attack on David is, I think, misplaced. He is not saying that violence against women is ok--he makes that very clear--just that it happens. People lose control and do things "they would never do if they thought them through." I don't think Maddie really believes that David condones violence, even violence born out of passion. Perhaps there is a little clue in what she says here: "...all the boys get together and say, we're sorry, we didn't mean it, it was SPONTANEOUS." This probably sounds crazy, and certainly I don't think we're given any other evidence for it (at least not in this ep), but it makes me wonder whether Maddie is reacting to something--or someone--from her past. Does this make any sense at all?
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 21:44:20 GMT -5
He sees a chance to make money for Blue Moon, but there could be a tad bit of him wanting to assert himself and make a decision on his own without her telling….ordering.... him what to do. It is again an example of the unstoppable force/immovable object and the two collide in a full blown slap. You're right on the money, bees--more than a "tad bit", I'd say. Interesting that Maddie is the "unstoppable force"--David just stands there and very quietly says what he says, almost conversationally. Bruce & Cybill do such great, great work in this ep!!
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 11, 2008 21:51:17 GMT -5
Jpen, you make the most sense!!!
But, I don't think she is really angry about Bower beating his wife. It's a cover for what is really eating at her.......she just can't 'fess up to it! And maybe she does not know exactly what it is at that moment.
Someone she "is not suppose to be with" has taken a layer off of the Great Wall of China that surrounds her heart.....which is really full of gold once a person can get to it!!
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Post by jpen on Nov 11, 2008 21:55:10 GMT -5
"Great Wall of China"...I love it, bees!
Poor Maddie. She wants to reach out so badly...but she is SO AFRAID. This whole season, I think, is about her dealing with her fear...and, unfortunately, ultimately she chooses to "run to a foreign country and hide under the bed" rather than confront it.
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