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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2009 21:05:36 GMT -5
Sorry to leave ya lonely, lin...just had to get "a little din-din" on the table... 3. When Jerome is showing Baby Hayes a picture of his mother (Maddie) he describes her as “an extraordinary woman, bright, beautiful, a huge heart, though often times she pays it little heed. It’s the creators’ hope that your arrival will help amend this situation.”
When Jerome describes Baby Hayes’s father (David) he says, “He has an extraordinary passion for life and an extraordinary passion for you mother.”
Whose viewpoint do you believe Jerome is speaking from? “The Creator” The viewers? Or both?
Once David is revealed as the father how did you originally react? Why do you suppose that this information was not revealed to David and Maddie?OK, I think lin is (as usual right-on that the "Creator" is Glenn, and this was his vision of the characters from the beginning of the show. It's kind of interesting, actually, that we get these lines here--almost as if he is reminding everyone who these characters are, in their essence; as though he is saying, "We may have gotten a little off track in S4, but don't worry--we know what we're doing." (Does that even make sense? ) However, these lines (in particular the bit about Baby Hayes "softening" Maddie), as well as the paternity revelation, make me wonder: was it always Glenn's* intention that Baby Hayes would not survive? It seems like he purposely paints a picture of a future that includes the baby. Jerome even tells him not to worry about Maddie and David fighting because he's "seen some future episodes." It's mystifying, to say the least. I've got more on that...but I'll be a good kid and answer the questions in order. As far as the reasons for not revealing the paternity to Maddie and David, that's a stumper to me. Even given the way "Womb" ends, it would have been natural, I think, to add that discussion to BAYAAHP--something else that could've brought M & D together in their grief (which surely was the point of that episode???). The fact that they fail to address this is, for me, one of the huge continuity frustrations (right up there with the missing proposal) of the series. *I know there were probably other folks responsible for the general story direction as well, but got the impression from the commentary that this episode was very much a Glenn product
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Post by lin212 on Apr 28, 2009 21:07:39 GMT -5
Well, I've put in a hard night's work, so I am going to have to call it a day. I'm sure the night owls in the bunch (or those not on the east coast) will be surfacing in a while, but I have an early day tomorrow. Thanks, bees.
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2009 21:13:33 GMT -5
#5 - What is the signficance of Bert and Agnes' conversation in David's office about parenthood? I'm not sure that there was any real significance. On the commentary, Jay Daniel mentions that this scene was a last minute filler because the episode was short. They filmed the episode in early October and it aired in December. It was only at the end of November that they decided to add this scene and finished the final edits at 4:30 in the morning on the Tuesday that it aired. Huh...that's really interesting--I didn't remember this from the commentary; I watched it a long time ago, and haven't had time to give it another look. I guess I "read into" this scene--I thought it was another example of comparing couples. Bert and Agnes are communicating how they feel and what they think, in marked contrast to our principal duo. Also, Bert and Agnes' relationship is pretty well-defined in this scene (they're committed on some level, to the point of talking about having children together)...again, unlike the "thing" between David and Maddie.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2009 21:16:52 GMT -5
LOL! It probably sounds like I am grasping for straws, but when there isn't anything else you start grabbing straws... Music was very important to Glenn and I have always loved thinking about the music choices through the whole show. Now about the Nanny Business....ya'll don't get mad at me, but I have always thought that scene was funny and I think that it shows that David is still the David we all fell in love with...well maybe not gray, but he knows what I mean! I think his character has definitely grown because of his love for Maddie, but David is still David! He does admit that he went a little overboard and Maddie even concedes she may have been a little sensitive to it all. They share a really nice moment on the couch that makes me forgive David!
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2009 21:22:40 GMT -5
#5 - What is the signficance of Bert and Agnes' conversation in David's office about parenthood? I'm not sure that there was any real significance. On the commentary, Jay Daniel mentions that this scene was a last minute filler because the episode was short. They filmed the episode in early October and it aired in December. It was only at the end of November that they decided to add this scene and finished the final edits at 4:30 in the morning on the Tuesday that it aired. Huh...that's really interesting--I didn't remember this from the commentary; I watched it a long time ago, and haven't had time to give it another look. I guess I "read into" this scene--I thought it was another example of comparing couples. Bert and Agnes are communicating how they feel and what they think, in marked contrast to our principal duo. Also, Bert and Agnes' relationship is pretty well-defined in this scene (they're committed on some level, to the point of talking about having children together)...again, unlike the "thing" between David and Maddie. Jpen, this is exactly what I thought as well until I watched the commentary this afternoon. I am thinking that it possibly started out as how they used Agnes and Bert in other episodes and became "filler". Gosh, it was perfect without me knowing that!
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 21:24:02 GMT -5
1. Before we see Baby Hayes there are clues as to who the father is at the beginning of this episode. What are they? Hey there my dear ML friends! Another week of great questions! Thanks for doing them BEEN..... Ok well i really can't think of anything off the top of my little ole red headed noggin LOL But i guess i just knew in my heart the baby had to be Davids and that was that and once you saw Bruce dressed as that baby the very first time you went :YAY All Right! We knew it! LOL
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2009 21:29:36 GMT -5
6. Do you believe Maddie and David are “together”? Why or why not? (Yeah, I stole this one from the old thread, but it’s still a good question!)
Well, I think they are "together" in the sense that neither of them is looking to be involved with anyone else--they seem to be committed to going through the baby thing together, but there really is no clue as to the status of their romance except when they're dancing. Even the ending scene, when they're holding hands, doesn't make that clear, which is one reason I find that scene totally inadequate.
I may have said this already, but the fact that we even have to ask this question is one of the most frustrating parts of the episode for me. Back in '88, we waited 8 1/2 MONTHS between "Flesh" and this episode. I really think the loyal viewers deserved some indication as to how things were between Maddie and David...some definition of their relationship and what transpired in ML-world during the long, long hiatus. IMO, it could've been so easily done in concert with some funny pregnancy stuff, or even a few lines about Lamaze, or their living situation. A kiss, even. There could still have been plenty of juggling and uncertainty--they never really got a chance to negotiate their relationship in S4, and could've spent S5 doing just that.
Argh. I gotta stop this. It's makin' me nuts!
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 21:35:19 GMT -5
2. What do you believe is the purpose of showing Baby Hayes the good and the bad parts of the world in which he will enter?
Well someone here mentioned how ML was both a comedy/drama and well this shows both sides of the spectrum here,it's also true to life isnt it? Lots of good and bad in the world but could it be the bad was shown and how it made Baby Hayes so upset that he didnt want to come out in the world, was it like a set up for the audience cause something bad was coming in the way of the loss of the baby? I may be reaching but i'm just thinking a bit i guess. I do love though how old scenes of M/D are shown to Baby Hayes and also ones of D/M out of character and i liked the idea that M/D are kindred spirits who have been around for hundreds of years and keep finding each other through the years. It's saying they are soulmates to me.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 28, 2009 21:44:01 GMT -5
1. Before we see Baby Hayes there are clues as to who the father is at the beginning of this episode. What are they? For me, its the fact he's David's spitting image, LOL...I'm sure there is a deeper explanation but haven't had a chance to watch again. Going from memory.
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 21:46:33 GMT -5
3. When Jerome is showing Baby Hayes a picture of his mother (Maddie) he describes her as “an extraordinary woman, bright, beautiful, a huge heart, though often times she pays it little heed. It’s the creators’ hope that your arrival will help amend this situation.”
When Jerome describes Baby Hayes’s father (David) he says, “He has an extraordinary passion for life and an extraordinary passion for you mother.”
Whose viewpoint do you believe Jerome is speaking from? “The Creator” The viewers? Or both?
Once David is revealed as the father how did you originally react? Why do you suppose that this information was not revealed to David and Maddie?
The CREATOR is definitely our GLENN , he created these characters and he knew them better than anyone. I thnk it really says it all about who M/D are. It's sad it wasnt able to stay this way with the characters acting like it was so for the rest of season 5. UGH!
And i think i said it before above ,i always believed that David was the father, he had to be. I was so happy to have this confirmed though, and i do wish it was confirmed on screen for M/D, maybe it wasnt done becuase the writers figured they took out the baby issiue so what was the sense of dwelling on it, because the next episode didnt do really much at all in the way of 2 people greiving for the loss of their child who is never ever mentioned again, i understand it couldnt be all they should have talked about for the rest of the series but it should have been brought up at a few other important times during season 5 and not even a mention of Maddies parents was crazy! ARGHHHH
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Post by jpen on Apr 28, 2009 21:47:25 GMT -5
7. What are your thoughts as to why the writers wrote this episode as they did?
What’s with the musical number at the end? Is it comic relief or just a way to fill some time in the episode?
Do you believe that had GGC still been an active writer in Season 5 that Maddie and David’s relationship would have survived the loss of their baby?
Did you watch the commentary? Did it help you make any sense out of some of their choices?
Are you jumping sharks?
I think I'm gonna have to save some of this until I can watch the commentary again..but as I recall, it didn't answer what was the most important question for me: WHY make the decision, at this point, to end the pregnancy storyline this way??? After spending virtually all of S4 dealing with Maddie and David's respective reactions, the paternity issue, etc., etc., and 4/5 of this episode introducing us to Baby Hayes...when you had millions of viewers hanging in the balance, waiting to find out "Who's Your Daddy" and see how M&D handle it, why in the world would you suddenly take all that away? I guess maybe it's akin to the Bobby Ewing "it was all a dream" thing on Dallas (which, just for context, happened in 1986).
As far as Glenn keeping Maddie and David's relationship alive, I think he would have. I mean, he plants the idea in so many of the S1-4 episodes that this couple is destined to be together. I think it's clear from the beginning that they're going to have to clear a lot of hedges, but I always felt like there was almost a promise made that they would end up riding off into the sunset together, if you'll forgive a really cliched metaphor.
Gotta go for the moment...will check back with you all in a bit!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 28, 2009 21:47:31 GMT -5
2. What do you believe is the purpose of showing Baby Hayes the good and the bad parts of the world in which he will enter? I believe it is the basis of all human life being explained...choice. Giving Baby Hayes the information to make his choice to stay in this circumstance or return to the Creator. It's funny this episode seems very personal and symbolic.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2009 21:48:27 GMT -5
2. What do you believe is the purpose of showing Baby Hayes the good and the bad parts of the world in which he will enter? Well someone here mentioned how ML was both a comedy/drama and well this shows both sides of the spectrum here,it's also true to life isnt it? Lots of good and bad in the world but could it be the bad was shown and how it made Baby Hayes so upset that he didnt want to come out in the world, was it like a set up for the audience cause something bad was coming in the way of the loss of the baby? I may be reaching but i'm just thinking a bit i guess. I do love though how old scenes of M/D are shown to Baby Hayes and also ones of D/M out of character and i liked the idea that M/D are kindred spirits who have been around for hundreds of years and keep finding each other through the years. It's saying they are soulmates to me. A+ rose!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 28, 2009 21:55:12 GMT -5
3. When Jerome is showing Baby Hayes a picture of his mother (Maddie) he describes her as “an extraordinary woman, bright, beautiful, a huge heart, though often times she pays it little heed. It’s the creators’ hope that your arrival will help amend this situation.” When Jerome describes Baby Hayes’s father (David) he says, “He has an extraordinary passion for life and an extraordinary passion for you mother.” Whose viewpoint do you believe Jerome is speaking from? “The Creator” The viewers? Or both? Once David is revealed as the father how did you originally react? Why do you suppose that this information was not revealed to David and Maddie? I believe it is from the Creators/creator point of view...just a feeling reflected by my view of the writer/creators last hurrah. I was not at all surprised. Why was it not revealed to D & M, um, I don't know but I feel it could have changed how they reacted to the tragedy and maybe helped to rebuild the bond between them.
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 21:58:36 GMT -5
4.What is your take on the Nanny For Hire business? Do you feel that this was out of character for David at this point in the show? Ok some of it was funny and cute and ok alittle like the old Dave was before Maddie and him became involved romantically, but it was a little over the top too, i mean i know David is a man and he can look at other women but honestly this should have been a scene where David took it seriously in interviewing women in his office sitting down for this position of NANNY like he did while Maddie was away in Chicago how serious he got in preparing for her to come home, but again was it not done this way because of the baby not going to make it? Is that why in season 4 finale we see 2 character gazing lovingly at each other from across Maddies office discussing lamaze classes and then we never see anymore of it or here about it again,cause it's too intimate and we shouldnt get invested in them as parents? AHHHHH more thinking going on here in my neck of the woods of PA
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