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Post by diane on Apr 28, 2009 22:44:33 GMT -5
3. When Jerome is showing Baby Hayes a picture of his mother (Maddie) he describes her as “an extraordinary woman, bright, beautiful, a huge heart, though often times she pays it little heed. It’s the creators’ hope that your arrival will help amend this situation.”
When Jerome describes Baby Hayes’s father (David) he says, “He has an extraordinary passion for life and an extraordinary passion for you mother.”
Whose viewpoint do you believe Jerome is speaking from? “The Creator” The viewers? Or both?
There is no question in my mind that out of all the words in this script, these are the Creator's -- GGC. These may be the best descriptions of the two characters I have ever seen, and I think the guidelines with which he built these characters from the beginning.
Once David is revealed as the father how did you originally react? Why do you suppose that this information was not revealed to David and Maddie?
I think I jumped up and down on the couch, to tell the truth! I know I shouted "I told you so" to anybody who would listen the next day at work!
I think if the information had been revealed to David and Maddie, there would have been no chance that they would not have remained together. And since the writers seemed hell bent on disassociating them as a couple, I guess it would have been counterproductive to the plot.
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 22:47:53 GMT -5
7. a) What are your thoughts as to why the writers wrote this episode as they did? b) What’s with the musical number at the end? Is it comic relief or just a way to fill some time in the episode? c) Do you believe that had GGC still been an active writer in Season 5 that Maddie and David’s relationship would have survived the loss of their baby? d) Did you watch the commentary? Did it help you make any sense out of some of their choices? Let me say first, thanks Bees and anyone who assisted with the questions. This 7th question is a doosy, I'll do my best to be PC. a) Not to sound too deep but it was like a prophecy; Glenn was sending a message to the network. ML was his baby and before he let anyone destroy his creative work he'd do it himself; kind of, I brought you in this world and I'll take you out. (I may have some hate mail after that but I can take the licks... too much symbolism here and I can & will explain my point of view) b) The musical number to me was a grand exit, a celebration of moving on to new things and new experiences. I believe it was a message to his writing staff and actors, it was Glenn's good bye. c) Yes but IMHO, the baby would have never been lost if Glenn wasn't leaving the show. I feel he saw the writing on the wall. d) I watched the commentary and the only thing I hear is regret and even a personal question of "why"; he truly is the only one who knows his motives and it bothers him. Alright, ready for the back lash AHHH SINCE no backlash here for you dear! I do get what you say though about maybe Glenn going all out with his big musical scene at the end since he knew it was his last but i guess here i'm a viewer at that time and still now who invested so much in M/D and their baby and i'm weepy here for thme and i'm so not ready for singing and dancing at this point. I hope that if Glenn had stayed the baby would have made it or if he stayed and still decided on doing it this way too i would have then hoped he would have had D/M work hard to find each other again and then maybe do what the Dr suggested at the hospital and work on having another baby and end the series that way. AHHH what might have been.....
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Post by diane on Apr 28, 2009 22:51:10 GMT -5
4.What is your take on the Nanny For Hire business? Do you feel that this was out of character for David at this point in the show?
I think it was a horrendously bad idea. I think, every once in a while, the writers would just say...."hey, we need a scene to show that David is like his old self"......almost as a macho reminder.
But, at the beginning of season 5, he isn't the old David. He has been to hell and back...though not so far as he is going to go.
The David of this time period would have been more respectful of Maddie's feelings, and quite frankly, not stupid enough to try this ploy.
In retrospect, after such a long time away from the end of season 4, how stupid were the writers, to make this the first scene in the new season that Maddie and David shared?
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 28, 2009 22:51:32 GMT -5
As far as them being together, I believe they are because of the nanny discussion in the office and the way they look at each other, the way they look at each other while dancing and the way they are in the hospital later. We may not see everything we want to see, at least I don't, but they still seemed engaged in a relationship. It is still, to this day, heartbreaking to hear Maddie questioning whether they will survive their loss: “I don’t think Ill ever be the same. I don’t think we will ever be the same.” And for her need to hear David's reassurance: “We’ll be alright. And you’re gonna be alright.” Not once, but twice: “Its gonna be hard to leave. Alone.” “You’re not gonna be alone. I’m gonna be right here with you. I’m not going anywhere.” And that is why I have always felt they were together....until "Between a Yuk..." Oh Bees, that was heart breaking to hear and read. Again, these words have deeper meaning...this is not a superficial script at all. GGC...wooo, I understand his regret because in hind sight, it didn't have to end that way.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 28, 2009 22:53:59 GMT -5
I know things couldnt have been all perfect and happy and rosey but after all that time of waiting ,us the audience wanted it all for their characters! Ok i need some new FANFIC to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/b][/quote] Rose, I'm cranking one out very soon, I'll PM you when it's up later this week (unless I leave town, which may happen) but will work to have it up soon. Working on it now, I too am nauseated from this review...must....get...Maddie & David...love...relief (my best Will Shatner imitation, lol) ;D
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Post by rose35 on Apr 28, 2009 23:02:21 GMT -5
I know things couldnt have been all perfect and happy and rosey but after all that time of waiting ,us the audience wanted it all for their characters! Ok i need some new FANFIC to read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/b][/quote] Rose, I'm cranking one out very soon, I'll PM you when it's up later this week (unless I leave town, which may happen) but will work to have it up soon. Working on it now, I too am nauseated from this review...must....get...Maddie & David...love...relief (my best Will Shatner imitation, lol) ;D[/quote] YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL I'm here waiting for some to read to get me out of this sadness for sure! But i will say this was an awesome way to help us understand this episode more maybe and maybe be able to deal with it alittle bit more, not alot of course, but this is very theraputic this weekly chat! I really love this group we got going on here weekly!
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2009 23:03:21 GMT -5
4.What is your take on the Nanny For Hire business? Do you feel that this was out of character for David at this point in the show? I think it was a horrendously bad idea. I think, every once in a while, the writers would just say...."hey, we need a scene to show that David is like his old self"......almost as a macho reminder. But, at the beginning of season 5, he isn't the old David. He has been to hell and back...though not so far as he is going to go. The David of this time period would have been more respectful of Maddie's feelings, and quite frankly, not stupid enough to try this ploy. In retrospect, after such a long time away from the end of season 4, how stupid were the writers, to make this the first scene in the new season that Maddie and David shared? I know what you mean diane and I usually get irritated when DAvid does this kind of stuff...like in "Tale..." but here I believe it is a "macho reminder". David always seemed to be a prideful man or a "man's man". Yes, I think he crossed the line and I think he realized it after the fact. Also, I think he has felt that the whole relationship with MAddie had been controlled by her and this was his way of showing that she was not going to control him. He was only interested in Maddie, but he was going to continue to enjoy the view, so to speak. Kinda like being on a diet, but that doesn't mean you can't look at the menu!! To tell you the truth what really bothered me about that scene is how he turned and looked at Agnes... that was mean!! Poor Agnes!
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 28, 2009 23:06:35 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that our dear Rose helped with some questions tonight!! Thanks again! It is a hard one to think about.
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Post by diane on Apr 28, 2009 23:16:43 GMT -5
5. What is the significance of Bert and Agnes’s conversation in David’s office about parenthood?
Again, it's sending mixed messages. On one hand, it shows that very clearly, they are a couple and have a future in mind (and when I get around to the script differences, there are a few more lines to that scene).
The, we have Agnes leaving, and calling him a jerk, leaving us with a very clear picture of her manipulation to get what she wanted....something very un-Agneslike.
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Post by diane on Apr 28, 2009 23:26:43 GMT -5
6. Do you believe Maddie and David are “together”? Why or why not?
I do believe that Maddie and David are "together"....but I am not so sure they are a couple in the strictest sense of the word.
I do think they had a commitment to each other...to do the Lamaze, and to be supportive of each other while Maddie waited for the baby to arrive. I am sure they spent time together...sure that David helped her with all the getting ready for baby things like setting up the crib, etc......I am sure they were affectionate with each other...perhaps sharing a kiss or two...sharing moments like in this episode when they were on the couch in her office.
But did they know where they were going or what they were going to do after the baby was born? I don't think so. I am pretty sure that this was an emotional time for both of them.....David, hugely involved even though he had been told he was not the baby's father.....Maddie just because the stress of pregnancy is enough without all the complications she had in hers.
I think that they were taking it slow...dealing one day at a time. This makes the tragedy of losing the baby even worse, because additionally, besides losing the baby, they lost their relationship. (for further info, see Jump the Shark...)
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Post by diane on Apr 28, 2009 23:43:55 GMT -5
What are your thoughts as to why the writers wrote this episode as they did?
Temporary insanity?? This episode has always driven me crazy, and when Cindy and I interviewed GGC, I went prepared to get an answer to this question. I did get to ask it, and he honestly could not give me a straight answer......he begged off, saying he remembered very little of the episode. There is a little more candor in the commentary, but I really believe it was his swan song, and he was going to do it the way he wanted.
Now, here is where I am going to be unpopular. I still think they could have had Maddie lose the baby and salvaged both the episode and the season.......Again, we have an episode without a case -- take some of the crap out, and make it a real ML episode. And if the decision was that they couldn't make the show work with a baby, fine. But treat the loss of the baby in a dignified manner, without stupid jokes about trying again. And most importantly, have Maddie and David go on with real lives......mourning as real people do, but together, as a couple.
What’s with the musical number at the end? Is it comic relief or just a way to fill some time in the episode?
This is to me the cruelest cut of all. I have heard all the explanations about why this is supposed to lift everybody's spirits -- I don't buy it. A little comedy and a soft shoe is not going to cut it here for me. They lost a baby.....an almost full term baby...there was nothing to sing about!
Do you believe that had GGC still been an active writer in Season 5 that Maddie and David’s relationship would have survived the loss of their baby?
I can't imagine that it could have.....I think Glenn was on his way out the door, no matter what. He may have exercised a little more control over the portrayal of his characters....but I guess we will never know. I do think, contrary to what some others have expressed, that Glenn would have had Maddie lose the baby, whether he was staying or going.
Did you watch the commentary? Did it help you make any sense out of some of their choices?
Not much...lots of excuses, though.
Are you jumping sharks?
Only as far as cause and effect, sort of.......this episode starts the jump for me, but only because it starts the complete disassociation of Maddie and David as a couple. If the loss of the baby had been dealt with properly in subsequent episodes, the jumping might have been avoided.
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Post by diane on Apr 29, 2009 0:08:31 GMT -5
Wow, lots of posts in a row here. I know this is a tough episode, but it's lonely out here in TV land.Do you believe that had GGC still been an active writer in Season 5 that Maddie and David’s relationship would have survived the loss of their baby?Yeah, I think so as GGC understood that the show WAS about their relationship. They couldn’t break up, they couldn’t go back to being just friends, that is NOT why people tuned in. Nobody watched to see who the guest star of the week was or to try and solve a puzzling case. We wanted banter! We wanted witty repartee! We wanted a comic break from our daily lives. Unfortunately ML turned into a pale shadow of its former greatness, and nobody had the decency to pull the plug before it was too late. I agree with Gray that the spark needed to be lit again. And somebody needed to remember that the -dy on the end of dramedy comes from the word "comedy". But, did you ever notice, the episodes that do not have cases are usually the ones that are more unsuccessful (I'm gonna eliminate Father Knows last from that statement, however!). Maddie and David being detectives....mostly not so good detectives, is what inspires the banter, repartee and double entendre!
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Post by diane on Apr 29, 2009 0:17:23 GMT -5
Do you believe that had GGC still been an active writer in Season 5 that Maddie and David’s relationship would have survived the loss of their baby?Yeah, I think so as GGC understood that the show WAS about their relationship. They couldn’t break up, they couldn’t go back to being just friends, that is NOT why people tuned in. Nobody watched to see who the guest star of the week was or to try and solve a puzzling case. We wanted banter! We wanted witty repartee! We wanted a comic break from our daily lives. Unfortunately ML turned into a pale shadow of its former greatness, and nobody had the decency to pull the plug before it was too late. Spot on, gray. Glenn comments that Season 4 was difficult because Maddie and David were not together and that was what made the show what it was - the banter, the heat, the tempers, the laughs. It was all about the chemistry. I think Glenn would have fought to keep fanning the flame. Remember folks, Glenn's decisions made season 4 what it was, too. He has said that he has second guessed some of his 4th season choices, but I am not sure if the season 5 ones would have been much different. In one of the commentaries......I am thinking it is the one for "A Trip to the Moon", Glenn and Bruce are recalling a conversation they had after season 3, and wondering whether they could just stop then. Bruce asked Glenn how long the network was going to make them do it..and Glenn replied,"They will make us do it till it sucks." Please don't misconstrue.......I think GGC is a genius, and I am forever grateful for what he gave us. I just think he only had 3 seasons of this story in his heart, and he would have been happy to end it with "I Am Curious".
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Post by diane on Apr 29, 2009 0:56:11 GMT -5
OK...the script, the script...the one I have is a 12th revision, dated November 23, which is approximately 2 weeks before the show aired.
As somebody said....Lin, I think (sorry!), the music from Baby Love is specified in the script in the car scene. It is also said to be used in the shower/dancing scenes, according to the script. The other songs that are used as part of the show, or incorporated into dialogue (Girl from Ipanema, Another Opening, Another Show, Sunny Side of the Street etc...are also in the script. One thing that is not designated in the script is "It's a Wonderful World" for the happy montage.
In my experience, it is not unusual for songs that are incorporated almost as dialogue to be specifically mentioned in the scripts, but usually, songs that are more background are sometimes not.
OK...what's missing or different?
Lots of tiny word changes, mostly in David's dialogue, and most seem to just work better with Bruce's acting style. I am really only going to mention significant changes (of which there are very few), or big clumps of dialogue that are missing.
**The scene in Maddie's bedroom is written to start differently.
FADE IN TO: A woman's back. A familiar back lying in a familiar bed in a familiar bedroom as an alarm clock goes off and...
MADDIE rolls over onto her back and reaches to shut off the alarm clock...and as she does so, we can make out her distended belly beneath the covers...and we....
CUT TO: a pair of feet hitting the carpet..and we widen to see
MADDIE having a bit of difficulty getting to her feet.....
CUT TO: MADDIE ...dressed for the day...surveying her figure in the mirror of her dressing area.....
CUT TO: MADDIE exits the front door and crosses to her car.....
ANOTHER ANGLE...as she lowers herself into the driver's seat...moving it back to make room for her payload...and then she pulls the seatbelt across her, having to unroll its entire length to accomodate her girth...and by now, we have the sense of just how cumbersome this whole motherhood thing can be.....
continues with the car scene.
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Post by diane on Apr 29, 2009 1:03:53 GMT -5
Script part 2:
In the scene before the Jerome shows Baby Hayes his parents,this is left out:
JEROME: You, Baby Hayes, are the product of two people's love. If everything goes according to plan, when you are born, it is with much anticipation and joy on the part of these two people. They are called your parents.
BABY: Wait a second....what's this "according to plan" mumbo jumbo?
JEROME (looking a bit uneasy): As I mentioned earlier, life is complicated.
BABY: But what about the Creator? If that's the way he wants it......?
JEROME: You're getting ahead of yourself....into the areas of destiny and free will...and it's really much easier if we take it all in order.
BABY: I don't know.....I'm beginning to smell a loophole you could drive a Tonka truck through....
JEROME: Please, Baby Hayes, one thing at a time.....
(Continues with parents scene)....
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