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Post by sandra on Dec 27, 2010 11:57:45 GMT -5
Also did anyone notice just how green Bruce's eyes looked in this one? Dreamy :-). Oh and one more for the road - when David is trying to get Maddie to come out in the French maid's outfit he says 'Come on times a wastin'' is this a referal to Cash and June on stage togther? Just a thought. Anyway that's me done today. Have a story that I must go and revise/edit - See you all on here soon. x Ah, bms, I thought of Johnny & June too. Green eyes, reeeeeally? Hmmm, I never noticed! (Anyone believes that?) ;-) |
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 1, 2011 3:52:24 GMT -5
Here's something that doesn't so much bother me as it sheds some light on the frat boy humor of Glenn Gordon Caron. In the scene where Maddie and David go to Roy Hirsch's apartment for the third (?) time, David does his little routine to see if anyone's home, while Maddie waits around the corner. As they try to open the door to Hirch's apartment, David asks Maddie for a credit card and she reaches into her purse. Meanwhile, a man walks into the hallway and sees them. David tries to turn the man's attention away from what they are doing and, of all the things he could've said at a moment like this (eg. Where did you put the key? Did you lose the key? Anything!), he says this to Maddie as the man passes them by: "Look, would you be more comfortable going to a hotel?" There are tons of examples of this (eg. "Miss March" in the pilot, Richard saying TO DAVID about Maddie "She's a hell of an order" IN MADDIE's PRESENCE in "Brother, Can You Spare a Blonde?", etc.; misogyny seems to run in the Addison family so it's not necessarily out of character for either one of them), and in this particular scene it's played for laughs so the misogyny is veiled, but misogyny is a tricky thing. I know it's David Addison, the character, who says this, and this is season 1 so David's instrumental treatment of women couldn't be more visible, but if (supposedly) Glenn Gordon Caron and Bruce Willis had a similar sense of humor and if they found this funny, it sure gives me an idea as to why they got along so well.
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Sept 1, 2011 5:45:02 GMT -5
At the end of the day it's still pretty funny though... I'm sure Maddie has used sexual innuendo to get a laugh at David's expense too: 'you're the only man I know who suffers from pianist envy' etc. Even If they were both female, the line about the hotel would still, in my opinion, be funny!
Maddie always gives as good as she gets- and that's where the spark is ignited.
I don't think David is a misogynist -yes he goads her with sexist comments but it is just to get a rise out of her- he enjoys pushing her buttons because she's an amazing woman; I don't think he'd bother if she didn't come back with the banter he enjoys. He loves her! He thinks she's a beautiful, strong and intelligent woman.
What can I say? I love Maddie, I love David and I find both of them hilarious in this episode.
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Post by sandra on Sept 1, 2011 6:12:58 GMT -5
Maddie always gives as good as she gets- and that's where the spark is ignited. I don't think David is a misogynist -yes he goads her with sexist comments but it is just to get a rise out of her- he enjoys pushing her buttons because she's an amazing woman; I don't think he'd bother if she didn't come back with the banter he enjoys. He loves her! He thinks she's a beautiful, strong and intelligent woman. I'm with you on this, Nancy... also, I really can't see a regular pattern or a general attitude of an instrumental treatment of women in David - I don't think he'd have found so many admirers here amongst us (nearly only women) if he really were despicable like that. |
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Post by diane on Sept 1, 2011 8:18:27 GMT -5
Mysoginist? David Addison? I can't imagine anything farther from the truth.
Maybe "frat boy humor" is a little accurate, but there are very few men who don't keep a little of that tucked in their heads......and if we're being honest, I think women have their own version, which they normally lapse into only in the company of other women.
But it is not typical of David's treatment of women --he champions women -- in the little things like holding doors and in the more important things like caring for their well being. How many cases did they take because David had a soft heart for a lady's story? I'll trade a little frat boy humor...and I guess that is the operative word -- humor -- anyday, for a man who I think, truly loves...and yes, respects the women in his life.
David Addison is a TV character. You can love him, you can hate him (sometimes, in different episodes, you can do both). But overall, I've gotta go with love.
I do caution us mixing the rumor and innuendo about the lives of the cast and crew, with the motives and behaviors of the characters. We are not fond of gossip here, and I don't think any one of us has the personal knowledge of any of these fine people to make sweeping comments about their character or personal lives.
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Post by sandra on Sept 1, 2011 10:06:37 GMT -5
Richard saying TO DAVID about Maddie "She's a hell of an order" IN MADDIE's PRESENCE in "Brother, Can You Spare a Blonde?", etc.; misogyny seems to run in the Addison family so it's not necessarily out of character for either one of them Seriously?? Forgive me, but I think it's a little too harsh to judge somebody (and, en passant the entire family) as misogynist only because of a flippant - not even rude IMO - comment referring to a woman. I mean, does it make me a men-despising woman (sorry, the correct greek foreign word escapes me at the moment) when I say about a man "Gosh, he's got a butt to crack nuts with"? I don't think so. JMHO of course. |
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 1, 2011 10:22:33 GMT -5
Maddie always gives as good as she gets- and that's where the spark is ignited. I don't think David is a misogynist -yes he goads her with sexist comments but it is just to get a rise out of her- he enjoys pushing her buttons because she's an amazing woman; I don't think he'd bother if she didn't come back with the banter he enjoys. He loves her! He thinks she's a beautiful, strong and intelligent woman. I'm with you on this, Nancy... also, I really can't see a regular pattern or a general attitude of an instrumental treatment of women in David - I don't think he'd have found so many admirers here amongst us (nearly only women) if he really were despicable like that. I do think there is a pattern there, but I guess I'm the only one who thinks there it. On the one hand, David can be sweet. As diane said, he holds doors for Maddie. He slow dances with her. He cleans up well and can look presentable when the situation requires it. He gives her flowers he stole from her garden. He gives her a genuine compliment about her body that isn't sexist (when they're in bed either in "I'm Curious... Maddie" or in "To Heiress Human"), though only because he wants to get laid, which is fine. On the other hand, there's the instrumental treatment, by which I mean looking up someone's dress, looking down someone's blouse, ogling someone's breasts, constantly making suggestive remarks about various parts of the female anatomy whenever there's a woman around and also in her presence (be it a secretary, a potential wife of a client, Maddie, or whoever else). It's misogynist because it's about control and lack of respect. What really gets me is that he can do it in such an arrogant, obvious way because usually when he does it the case requires him to distract the woman in question. Or, like in "The Murder's in the Mail", he does it to Maddie's face, but he's trying to distract the man who passes them by. Or, in the scene with the lie detector (I don't remember the title of the episode, but it's definitely from season 1) when Maddie walks into the room and bends over. Which is what makes the sexism so difficult to notice. As a woman, it doesn't bother me. An occasional eye roll and "boys will be boys" suffices. As a feminist, it does bother me. I'm just saying it's better to acknowledge that it does indeed exist in the show than saying it doesn't. Yes, Maddie and David's banter is a form of verbal foreplay and he means well because at least he tries to compliment her in his own way. (She gives him a piece of her mind, too, from time to time and makes jokes at his expense.) But him thinking she's an amazing, beautiful, strong and intelligent woman and him enjoying getting a rise out of her is one side of the story. Many times Maddie is a little less pleased with David's innuendo than David is. Sure, I'm not saying the jokes aren't funny (be it jokes at Maddie's or David's expense). I like humor as much as the next person. But certain jokes at the expense of women are more difficult to laugh at than others. I guess women can let certain jokes slide, but it creates a vicious circle. Still, it's every woman's prerogative to decide for herself. Richard saying TO DAVID about Maddie "She's a hell of an order" IN MADDIE's PRESENCE in "Brother, Can You Spare a Blonde?", etc.; misogyny seems to run in the Addison family so it's not necessarily out of character for either one of them Seriously?? Forgive me, but I think it's a little too harsh to judge somebody (and, en passant the entire family) as misogynist only because of a flippant - not even rude IMO - comment referring to a woman. I mean, does it make me a men-despising woman (sorry, the correct greek foreign word escapes me at the moment) when I say about a man "Gosh, he's got a butt to crack nuts with"? I don't think so. JMHO of course. It's not just about hating men/women. It's about jokes that degrade them. That particular joke basically brings Maddie down to the level of a meal. Food metaphors are probably the most common sexual metaphors. And it's a misogynist joke any way you slice it. Sure, you can find the joke funny because if you think about it, the joke is actually set up to make Richard look bad, but the fact remains that the joke is a misogynist joke. That's the only thing I'm saying. I seem to recall reading an interview with Glenn Gordon Caron where he said that he and Bruce have a similar sense of humor. It made me wonder. That's all. I couldn't tell you where I read it (probably the DavidandMaddie.com website, but I 'm not 100% sure), but it doesn't really matter. You're right, I don't know the people involved in the show personally, and I only care about their personal lives in so far as they relate to the show. |
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2011 13:54:08 GMT -5
David Addison a misogynist? Sorry, but it doesn't feel right, it doesn't sound right. Yes, he does make sexist comments, but as Nancy said it and I absolutely agree with her - he does so to push her buttons, he knows she loves it even if she gets angry at times. That's their style, that's how it works - that's how we love them. Besides, don't you think Maddie (being a strong, independent, sophisticated woman) would have thrown him away, get rid of him if she didn't love his remarks? And David in his turn never goes too far, he makes his jokes till he is sure she is not hurt. You know why? Because he loves her. And she loves him just the way he is, sexist remarks included. Remember "My Fair David"? The moment he stopped saying sexist comments she was bored and what did she say? I miss the old David. I want him back. Just my opinion of course.  |
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Post by iluvdavid on Sept 1, 2011 14:31:32 GMT -5
David a misogynist...hardly! How does he show a hatred of women..by telling a few ribald jokes, double innuendos..he does it to be funny and also to get under Maddie's skin. He is never mean or demoralizing with his comments...he doesn't do it to hurt Maddie....just my opinion.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 1, 2011 14:41:03 GMT -5
Wow.....never ever EVER!!! Did I EVER think a discussion about whether David Addidon hates or distrusts women would happen here.
One of the qualities that Maddie loves about David is his ability to yank her chain. And I don't mean to insult those who believe that using a phrase like this..."yanking her chain"...is demoralizing to women. It's a joke. Maddie Hayes has a wonderful sense of humor and though she tried very hard not to show it sometimes, she loves David's humor and the ability to turn a joke into something that is actually many times his way of saying "you're gorgeous and I'm falling head over heels and I can't stop myself."
This is season 2...early season 2 where it's all about 2 people thrown together trying to run a business and they fall in LOVE with each other, not hate. And they learn to trust each other, which is what people do when they love each other.
I'm gonna walk away now....
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Post by iluvdavid on Sept 1, 2011 14:44:28 GMT -5
I agree beesnbears!
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Post by sandra on Sept 1, 2011 15:16:33 GMT -5
Wow.....never ever EVER!!! Did I EVER think a discussion about whether David Addidon hates or distrusts women would happen here. Same confusion here, bees. Absolutely. |
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
Posts: 210
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Post by 1987 on Sept 1, 2011 15:34:48 GMT -5
I may be in the minority here but this sexist, rude, hilarious man vs. woman banter is exactly what I miss in TV today. The honesty of the differences in a man and woman. They can't be overlooked but we damn sure try to in efforts to be (cringing here) "politically correct". I think Glenn and the other writers wrote this dynamic brilliantly and in no way made Maddie out to be a joke or a figure of derision.
Moonlighting was a story of 2 flawed characters that we eventually saw grow as a result of each other.
I miss the beautiful, strong character Maddie Hayes running her own business and making it a success - and not needing a man, but rather deciding that she wanted one. She was such a strong, admirable character. I miss even more the charming, adorable guy who challenged her, embarrassed her and delighted her with his comments, personality and attractiveness.
Like I mentioned last year regarding Twas the Episode Before Christmas' ending with the cast singing a Christian based song: we never see this anymore, and never will again. People take things way too seriously now. Some may call it evolving, I call it stifling.
Did David's sexist jokes deter Maddie or keep her from succeeding? Not at all. It was harmless fun. "It was a game. That's all, a game. Now it's not fun any longer."
You want to talk about a show demeaning to women? The Sopranos was the worst. And you know what? I loved every minute of my 2nd favorite show ever.
I have to get back to work now - where I am a female boss to 225 employees. God, I wish some hot, spiky-haired guy would come in and flirt with me and buy me a Seagrams Golden Wine Cooler.
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Post by sandra on Sept 1, 2011 15:51:37 GMT -5
I may be in the minority here but this sexist, rude, hilarious man vs. woman banter is exactly what I miss in TV today. I don't think you're in the minority here. Count me in. |
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Sept 1, 2011 16:20:31 GMT -5
I may be in the minority here but this sexist, rude, hilarious man vs. woman banter is exactly what I miss in TV today. I don't think you're in the minority here. Count me in. ME TOO |
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