REWATCHING: ALL CREATURES GREAT..AND NOT SO GREAT

[graycav56]

4. David says Maddie "could use a little introspection." What do you think he means? And what about his own level of self-knowledge?

I think that Dave is still trying to get Maddie to at least CONSIDER things beyond her scientific and factual approach. After this length of time, he knows that she will be a tough nut to crack (in a whole BUNCH of ways), and would be happy if she would just remain open minded, much as she alluded in the last scene of “In God”.

As for Dave, I think he’s pretty secure in his understanding of how things work. He is comfortable in retaining the belief structure he was raised with and nothing he has been exposed to in adulthood has caused him to stray too far from that path. Of course this all goes to hell in season five with Annie, but I digress…..

[graycav56]

Aug 4, 2009 19:18:04 GMT -5 lin212 said:

2. What do you think is the significance of the "David as a voyeur" scene in terms of the episode as a whole? What does it reveal about the state of David and Maddie's relationship?

When I think of this scene, what comes to mind are David's words to Maddie in BMOMS when he accuses her of being on her "morally high horse". That pretty much describes Maddie in this scene when she chews David out for offending that "poor woman". So at the beginning of this episode, we see Maddie lecturing David on his behavior as morally reprehensible. Then we see the flip side of the moral issue when it comes to the case. David is disturbed by the thought of leading Father McD astray and is even more angry at Maddie for taking this case. Now it's his turn to get on that morally high horse. He is pretty rough on her in the car and in the church, preaching to her on the benefits of religion and her lapse in judgment.

As for the state of their relationship, I am not exactly sure what this episode reveals. It seems that even though they have become close over the past 2 years, they still continue to be surprised by each other's behavior and/or beliefs. Maddie was shocked to find out how "depraved" David was. She actually gave him a pass when she first found him with the telescope, thinking that he was truly sorry for his behavior. It was only when she came back into the office that she really went off on him. I think she also was surprised by the depth of David's feelings on religion and the issues of this case. David on the other hand, had a hard time understanding why Maddie couldn't see the problem in helping Father McD on the road to hell.

While they definitely have feelings for each other as demonstrated by their confessions that they would turn to each other "when push comes to shove", this episode shows that they still have some major hurdles ahead.

Well said. I was struggling with how to answer this question until I went back and read your post. Bravo I say.

[lin212]

8. Any chance David was just pretending to be asleep, there at the end?

Ah, the mind reels! What comes to mind is that little smirk David has on his face when Maddie says "Missed you" in TSAR...that little sense of satisfaction.

[graycav56]

OK gang, gotta run, but I'll check back tomorrow to see what other tirades I can share with you folks.

Until then.......

[jpen]

Aug 4, 2009 19:18:04 GMT -5 lin212 said:

2. What do you think is the significance of the "David as a voyeur" scene in terms of the episode as a whole? What does it reveal about the state of David and Maddie's relationship?

When I think of this scene, what comes to mind are David's words to Maddie in BMOMS when he accuses her of being on her "morally superior high horse". That pretty much describes Maddie in this scene when she chews David out for offending that "poor woman". So at the beginning of this episode, we see Maddie lecturing David on his behavior as morally reprehensible. Then we see the flip side of the moral issue when it comes to the case. David is disturbed by the thought of leading Father McD astray and is even more angry at Maddie for taking this case. Now it's his turn to get on that morally superior high horse. He is pretty rough on her in the car and in the church, preaching to her on the benefits of religion and her lapse in judgment.

As for the state of their relationship, I am not exactly sure what this episode reveals. It seems that even though they have become close over the past 2 years, they still continue to be surprised by each other's behavior and/or beliefs. Maddie was shocked to find out how "depraved" David was. She actually gave him a pass when she first found him with the telescope, thinking that he was truly sorry for his behavior. It was only when she came back into the office that she really went off on him. I think she also was surprised by the depth of David's feelings on religion and the issues of this case. David on the other hand, had a hard time understanding why Maddie couldn't see the problem in helping Father McD on the road to hell.

While they definitely have feelings for each other as demonstrated by their confessions that they would turn to each other "when push comes to shove", this episode shows that they still have some major hurdles ahead.

Totally agree, lin. I also wonder whether the writers were playing with the idea that Father McD's interest in Alicia is on some level voyeuristic (and I'm not meaning to be blasphemous here)--not necessarily in a sexual sense, but more in the sense that he's looking (well, listening) in on her life from outside. He constructs a picture of who she is--even thinks he's in love with her--based on her confessions.

Does that sound completely crazy???

As for what it reveals about their relationship, I think the telescope interaction is so interesting--their facial expressions are priceless! Maddie is ready for David to fast-talk and/or snark his way out of that one, and when he comes across as penitent, she is visibly softened. Right then, I think the door opens for her, just a little (I love her voice when she says "I believe you are").

As for David, I think he is actually sorry when Maddie catches him with the ol' binocs. He's been caught red-handed, and he knows that he's just lost whatever ground he gained a few minutes prior--you can see it in his face. And then when Maddie gets mad at the "tramp," that twinkle in his eyes is more than just amusement!

[lin212]

Good point, jen...pretty insightful as a matter of fact. We also see the voyeur theme when David and Maddie are spying on the Adamsons (or so they thought).

[lin212]

I am going to jump off now as well...early call in the morning. I will check in tomorrow to catch up.

[jpen]

Aug 4, 2009 20:12:43 GMT -5 graycav56 said:

4. David says Maddie "could use a little introspection." What do you think he means? And what about his own level of self-knowledge?

I think that Dave is still trying to get Maddie to at least CONSIDER things beyond her scientific and factual approach. After this length of time, he knows that she will be a tough nut to crack (in a whole BUNCH of ways), and would be happy if she would just remain open minded, much as she alluded in the last scene of “In God”.

As for Dave, I think he’s pretty secure in his understanding of how things work. He is comfortable in retaining the belief structure he was raised with and nothing he has been exposed to in adulthood has caused him to stray too far from that path. Of course this all goes to hell in season five with Annie, but I digress…..

Agree, gray. On another level, though, David could be implying that Maddie could use some introspection into her feelings...for him, which I think is at the root of his anger in the church. He feels that if she cares about him, she should be supportive of him, and should listen to him. But he doesn't feel supported or heard, and it hurts him very deeply.

In this sense, David's comment is a little pot & kettle for me. I think David could use some introspection into his feelings for Maddie, and how much he is willing to change or adapt for her. The opening of BMOMS is a perfect example: David blows off a meeting with a paying client because he is out drinking...even though he knows the meeting is important to Maddie, and even though he knows how frustrating his party sensibility is to her.

[jpen]

6. At this point in the series, do you think Maddie is aware of her feelings for David...on any level?

Well, her feelings are becoming more obvious to us in this episode, especially when she reacts to the woman on the phone ("Tramp!"), but I'm not sure Maddie is totally there yet. She does seem softer and more open; when David bawls her out in the church, instead of fighting back, she actually does what he suggested and tries confession. (Actually, when I watched this time, her holding back came as a bit of a shock--but I think Maddie herself is shocked by David's anger.) In the confessional, she seems to come to terms with their essential differences, but not in a romantic way.

Her comment to him at the end definitely opens the door, as lin said...and who knows what could've come out of it if he had been awake?

[beesnbears]

Aug 4, 2009 19:37:32 GMT -5 lin212 said:

3. Maddie thinks they should tell Father McD about Alicia because they have an obligation to him as their client. David thinks they shouldn't because it might "lead him into temptation"--so they have a moral obligation to keep the information from him. Do you feel like these reactions are consistent with what we know about Maddie & David?

Yes, they are absolutely consistent with what we know. Here we see David approaching this case as a man of faith - Catholic faith. That is the framework within which he is operating and which colors his attitude toward Father McD's request. Maddie on the other hand, views Father McD as any other client and has no bias toward his situation. She isn't fighting a moral dilemma so she handles the case rationally...thinking, not feeling.

First, sorry I missed last week. We have been on vaca!! Second, these are great Q's jpen! And third, great googly moogly, the responses are super!! Love grays avatar! LOL!!

The questions concerning David's anger and what he is really upset about, their views on religion and Lin's response above go together, imo.

I agree that David is angry that Maddie wants to throw temptation Father Mc D's way, but I also think he is angry because Maddie tends to rationalize and think every little thing through instead of feeling and following her heart when it is called for the most. Hence, the big discussion about how religion can make the world a better place, going to confessional, etc. and then the relentless questioning about Maddie's therapist by David. Remember the question he asked in "In God..." when Maddie revealed her doubts in a supreme being?

"How? How did this happen?" David asks with one of the most concerned and sincere looks we see from him up to this point in the show.

He is also angry that he can't seem to figure out why Maddie thinks so much and doesn't let herself feel. So, he learns that she had been seeing a therapist and thinks maybe she will share with him what happened in her life where she needed a therapist to help her overcome it.

What I like most about this episode is that we again see another layer of David Addison's personality and we get to see a teeny tiny layer of Maddie's heart peeled back so we can get a glimpse of who she really is and how she feels about David. They both know they are two very different people that are very attracted to each other!!

Another thing I like is Maddie's growing detective skills!! She proved that sometimes one of them has to think and rationalize!

[beesnbears]

Asleep or faking it?

LOL!! He was so playing possum!! As if to say, "Maddie, Maddie, Maddie...stop with all of the BS, nobody is listening to it. Tell me how you feel!!"

Only she was making the attempt and it would have been a nice ending if they had shown him open one eye while Maddie wasn't looking!!

It's another case of letting us hear or see and keeping them apart!! Very clever on the writers part, I think!

[graycav56]

I was just watching the Vikings-Texans pre-season game on ESPN when a commercial came on for Safe Auto, the discount insurance company. In it, a young woman is running off a litany of sins to a priest, who obviously wants to get moving. As the commercial goes on, he doesn't doze off, but he DOES fire up his iPod.

Reminded me of this episode for sure.

[sandra]

OK, today I'll try the Q's:

1. Thinking back to the last Re-Watching: how do Maddie and David's views about belief and faith, as expressed in "In God...", play into this episode?
So far we've only seen their views about faith (David: a believer; Maddie: at least considering the "possibility"), here it's about religion which IMO is a completely different thing; one can believe in god and not agree with religious rules, the church's role (like myself: I'm catholic, too, but definitely not happy with many things happening inside and around the catholic church).

For Maddie, as she's just a "believer-maybe", the question about religious beliefs naturally has no importance. About David we learn here that not only he believes in god, but is also religious (catholic).

2. What do you think is the significance of the "David as a voyeur" scene in terms of the episode as a whole? What does it reveal about the state of David and Maddie's relationship?
The scene maybe intends to show us that, though being a faithful catholic, David also strongly believes, as he puts it later in one of the great conversations M/D have in this ep, in the "force of life" - obey the rules, yes, but only to a certain extent. You can be catholic, and still a rebel without a clue.

About the relationship? I think David mentioned it himself, saying something about without the opportunity to live out your amorous fantasies you gotta go for some kind of compensation.

What I liked about it was the fact that, furious as Maddie was, she calmed down surprisingly fast; later, when they were checking the books about the cab companies, she seemed totally at ease again, even smiling at his "rolling in a haystack" joke.

3. Maddie thinks they should tell Father McD about Alicia because they have an obligation to him as their client. David thinks they shouldn't because it might "lead him into temptation"--so they have a moral obligation to keep the information from him. Do you feel like these reactions are consistent with what we know about Maddie & David?
Tricky question... so far it has been always Maddie judging their clients, while David always keeps telling her that it is none of their business to judge their clients, just do what they're paid for, period.

These roles are switched here, but IMO only at first sight. For Maddie, Father McD's status as a priest isn't of any importance; as we've seen, she doesn't have religious qualms. And - ignoring the fact that McD's a priest, his quest for Alicia isn't immoral. So Maddie's reaction fits into her usual behavior, I think.
For David, McD is not just an ordinary client; as a faithful catholic, he expects McD to have higher moral standards than the usual jerk. Hadn't McD been a priest, David surely would not have judged him for being capable of breaking into a marriage (while Maddie surely would have!). So I think, David's behavior in this ep stays in line with his usual behavior.

4. David says Maddie "could use a little introspection." What do you think he means? And what about his own level of self-knowledge?
I think he knows already that Maddie has feelings for him that she won't admit, but he doesn't mean only an introspection about their relationship, but about Maddie's attitude about life in general (never lose control, always weigh the pros and cons, paint everything in black and white without acknowledging there are also many shades of grey...).
His own self-knowledge? Oh, tricky again. I think he's more aware of his feelings about her - at least deep, deep down...

5. The scene in the church is about as angry as we've seen David (so far). Why does he take this case so personally, and what do you think he's really upset about?
I think that is related to Q 3 - it's about his religious beliefs, his own catholic background that makes him feel so strong about this case. But what really upsets him is that Maddie, again, won't listen to him. Maybe also that she, again, underestimates him; it was very rude of her when he tried to explain her what he liked about his religion, she waved him off with a comment about catholic schoolgirls in short skirts. Not very tolerant, blondie!

6. At this point in the series, do you think Maddie is aware of her feelings for David...on any level?
Of course she is! That's clearly shown in her "confession" when she talks about David. And later, when she tries to talk to David, she's even ready to admit somthing (even if not her romantic feelings).

7. Maddie and David share a lot of pretty revealing moments in this episode, though several of them are contentious. Have a favorite?
Yep, clearly the church scene. When David speaks to Maddie, you can clearly see how his words affect her, and how she immediately starts thinking about them. And I absolutely love David's exit ("I'll take a cab!"); very cleverly filmed, to let him exit the whole long way through the aisle; a very strong scene for him.

8. Any chance David was just pretending to be asleep, there at the end?
Would have been nice, wouldn't it? But no, I don't think so. Otherwise the viewers would have been shown, I think.

Some extras:
did you notice in the credits there was "Burt" Viola?!

I absolutely love Agnes in this ep; she is really pretty! And when she offers to resign, isn't David sooo sweet to her? (Maddie too, but of course he tops it with his kiss on Agnes's cheek - and Agnes: "You really need me, Mr. Addison, don't you?" )
And in this ep, I think, the Agnes/Bert relationship starts to mirror the D/M relationship: Agnes tells Bert "I hate you", and he leaves a rose on her desk (yes, Dave, he may be hardly longer than a cello, but he definitely got guts!)

And, to end this loooooooong post, my quotable quotes:

M: "David Addison, you are a vile, unevolved swine!"
D: "Yes, I am."
M: "You don't deserve to belly up to the same trough with the rest of the pigs!"
D: "Right again."
M: "You give bacona bad name!"
D: "Yeah, guess I do." (but I like also the "You're an animal!" - "Exactly!" bit. Now that's a statement! ;D)

M: "I get trichinosis just looking at you!"

D: "We have better things to do than try to find a woman in a haystack!"
M: "Like what?"
D: "Like rolling around in a haystack!" ...noticed her smile??

M: "We're gonna be here all night."
D: "And nothing but each other for warmth..."

D: "I've been thinking..."
M: "You've been comatose!"

D: "You know what makes no sense? Nipples on men. But hey, that's the way god planned it!"

M: "You may live in an ethical vacuum..." ouch!!

D: "Three's a company, twenty's a group grope!" LMAO!!!

M: "Put that gun in your mouth and pull the trigger!"
D: "Won't you make me dig my own grave first?"
M: "I couldn't pull the trigger."
D: "Glad to hear it. Shrink must be doing a good job !"

D: "Right attitude, wrong position. We gotta get one of those illustrated manuals!"

[sandra]

I forgot to say I absolutely love the title reference, and I like the original words of the hymn:

All things bright and beautiful,
all creatures great and small,
all things wise and wonderful -
the Lord God made them all.

[bluemoonshampoo]

Okay, just some little thoughts on this one as I feel the questions have been answered admirably: When Maddie confesses- it concerns her feelings about David! Even though the priest falls asleep - I was firmly on the edge of my sofa :-) Here it was- she could confess about anything...but she chose our Dave to bring to the box! They're so different but let's embrace those differences and get on with it- why oh why didn't she take he own advice? Grrrrr. I love it when she says 'He has a kaleidoscope inside him'- beautiful :-)