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Post by marple on Aug 19, 2009 2:36:18 GMT -5
3. Do you feel that Agnes was speaking for you, the viewer, during her heart to heart chat with Maddie? Or do you think the writers were confessing their transgressions in the way they wrote Maddie's character at this point in the show? (and YES!!! This is a jab! )
Yes, I always feel Agnes speaks for the viewers, and I like it. However, this Maddiefs speech doesnft sound right to me. gDavid is the first kiss all the time.h is great, but I donft believe she loves fake stuff. Considering her behaviors in the past, itfs clear that fake stuff doesnft suit her and she knows she hates it. If they tried to make excuse for her unexpected marriage, Ifm afraid but I don't think it works well.
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Post by marple on Aug 19, 2009 2:45:13 GMT -5
4. During the last car scene what do you think Maddiefs reasons were for declaring her love for David? (I am always confused by her little speech...very sweet with the music though...just very confusing!! Anyone else?)This Maddiefs speech sounds like very girlish-sentimentalism to me. I know she acts like a school girl at times, but donft believe she would finish things in such a state. I also respect her love for the experiences shared with David. But what I canft figure out is whether she has given up David at this point, or she hasnft yet? Despite having been utterly confused, she said good-bye to Sam (well itfs actually David in her bed then, anyway), and she became strong when she felt losing David in the many past episodes. So I just think the reasons are not like Maddie who I know. However I also think she doesnft want to have fight with David anymore and feels the need to explain her feelings for him. Butcstill she drives me crazy by the speech, too!
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
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Post by witness on Aug 19, 2009 3:08:28 GMT -5
4. During the last car scene what do you think Maddie’s reasons were for declaring her love for David? (I am always confused by her little speech...very sweet with the music though...just very confusing!! Anyone else?)
It just affirms the notion that she married Walter out of fear, exhaustion, resignation, whatever. Because the way Maddie describes her relationship with David makes it sound like that "great and extraordinary love" she claims she found with Walter...after 3 days. Perhaps Maddie is letting David know there's still a window open...in case he wants to fight for her again? That seemed to be his interpretation, judging from his response. Who knows...this IS Season 4 Maddie after all.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Aug 19, 2009 8:16:04 GMT -5
;D Like the avatar gray!! I kinda thought you might go with the scene with you wrestling the bad ladies on the round bed!! Ahh, I considered it....but my avatar's heart belongs to Maddie.
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Post by beesnbears on Aug 19, 2009 16:53:29 GMT -5
Or do you think the writers were confessing their transgressions in the way they wrote Maddie's character at this point in the show? (and YES!!! This is a jab! )
bees...not sure I understand this part. Are you asking whether the writers may have been apologizing to the audience for the storyline, through Agnes' speech?
Yes, that's what I mean witness. I am sure they got many letters and/or phone calls when Maddie came back to town married. Only thing is, if they KNEW that messed up, why didn't they fix it by the end of the season or even early on in Season 5!! *sigh*...there's that bottomless pit stomach again!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Aug 19, 2009 19:36:27 GMT -5
Or do you think the writers were confessing their transgressions in the way they wrote Maddie's character at this point in the show? (and YES!!! This is a jab! )
bees...not sure I understand this part. Are you asking whether the writers may have been apologizing to the audience for the storyline, through Agnes' speech?
Yes, that's what I mean witness. I am sure they got many letters and/or phone calls when Maddie came back to town married. Only thing is, if they KNEW that messed up, why didn't they fix it by the end of the season or even early on in Season 5!! *sigh*...there's that bottomless pit stomach again!! Oh, but Bees, remember that they got rid of Walter in Flesh, the last episode of Season 4. If you look at the air dates of the last shows of S4, they pretty much went bang bang with Tracks airing on Feb 2, Eek on Feb 9, and a couple week break until Maddie Hayes Got Married in early March. They had a Bert and Agnes show a couple of weeks later and Flesh aired on Mar 22. My guess is that they did not anticipate the viewer uproar and could not make the changes any faster....unless they wanted to scrap the episodes already either in the can or far along. I doubt ABC would have appreciated that.
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Post by beesnbears on Aug 19, 2009 19:58:57 GMT -5
Yes, you are right gray.
Truthfully, I have always given the writers the benefit of the doubt in this area. I so want to believe that they knew they had to try to right the ship. I guess they thought they did the best they could and never dreamed we would be here today thinking up all of the different ways they could have finished the show!!
...did they even suspect there would fanfiction written?!? ;D
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Aug 22, 2009 2:47:50 GMT -5
Or do you think the writers were confessing their transgressions in the way they wrote Maddie's character at this point in the show? (and YES!!! This is a jab! )bees...not sure I understand this part. Are you asking whether the writers may have been apologizing to the audience for the storyline, through Agnes' speech? Yes, that's what I mean witness. I am sure they got many letters and/or phone calls when Maddie came back to town married. Only thing is, if they KNEW that messed up, why didn't they fix it by the end of the season or even early on in Season 5!! *sigh*...there's that bottomless pit stomach again!! First of all bees, don't you mean "a hole in my belly?" (sorry, had to throw a "Witness..." ref in there) If only Glenn, the "300 lb. script gorilla," had listened to Cybill when she registered her complaints about Maddie "marrying some wimp," this whole catastrophe may have been averted. God forbid you listen to a mere actor who has lived and breathed this character for 3+ years! And ignore your own instincts when you created the character to begin with? Glenn must have already checked out at this point.
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
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Post by witness on Aug 22, 2009 3:27:16 GMT -5
I certainly didn’t want this turn of events and think the entire Walter thing was absolutely and completely out of character. I went back and took a look at the writers’ credits for the episodes up to and including EEK and found the results quite interesting. Glenn Gordon Caron only had one credit, but we all know he was the 300lb gorilla when it came to the scripts. Interestingly, Tracks was credited to Judith Kahan, her only ML credit. Giving a relative rookie a pivotal episode like Tracks was unconscionable. Gray...perhaps this belongs in a diff thread, but it's not clear to me whether you're referring to Kahan's writing on Tracks or the marrying Walter storyline. I actually thought Tracks was a decent episode, the end notwithstanding of course. But since we know that the "300 lb. script gorilla" put them all through HIS typewriter, everything gets traced back to him.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Aug 22, 2009 7:20:06 GMT -5
I certainly didn’t want this turn of events and think the entire Walter thing was absolutely and completely out of character. I went back and took a look at the writers’ credits for the episodes up to and including EEK and found the results quite interesting. Glenn Gordon Caron only had one credit, but we all know he was the 300lb gorilla when it came to the scripts. Interestingly, Tracks was credited to Judith Kahan, her only ML credit. Giving a relative rookie a pivotal episode like Tracks was unconscionable. Gray...perhaps this belongs in a diff thread, but it's not clear to me whether you're referring to Kahan's writing on Tracks or the marrying Walter storyline. I actually thought Tracks was a decent episode, the end notwithstanding of course. But since we know that the "300 lb. script gorilla" put them all through HIS typewriter, everything gets traced back to him. Ya know, witness, thanks for calling me out on this. After I reread my post, a number of times, I think that my point, and my tone was not what I intended. I am not a screenwriter, nor to I play one not on TV, so I would not be talented enough to comment on Kahan's talents. I agree with you that most of Tracks was well done. What I 'meant' to say was that it was unfair that a rookie writer was given the task to tell all the ML faithful that Maddie married Walter. I doubt she would have the "jack" to make that call, nor would I think that she floated that trial zeppelin in the first place. It HAD to come from a higher authority.
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
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Post by witness on Aug 22, 2009 22:00:17 GMT -5
Ya know, witness, thanks for calling me out on this. After I reread my post, a number of times, I think that my point, and my tone was not what I intended. Perhaps MY tone was not what I intended. "Calling a person out" on something has always had a negative connotation in my world; so, if I came across as anything but curious and interested in your POV, I apologize. I am not a screenwriter, nor to I play one not on TV, so I would not be talented enough to comment on Kahan's talents. I agree with you that most of Tracks was well done. You seem talented judging from your posts Like you said previously, they all did the best they could under unfortunate circumstances. What I 'meant' to say was that it was unfair that a rookie writer was given the task to tell all the ML faithful that Maddie married Walter. I doubt she would have the "jack" to make that call, nor would I think that she floated that trial zeppelin in the first place. It HAD to come from a higher authority]. In the end, what it all boils down to for me is that Genius Glenn the Behemoth came up with this and actually thought it would fly. He let us ALL down, not just Agnes and the wobblies .
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
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Post by 1987 on May 21, 2010 13:54:26 GMT -5
When Maddie tells Agnes that David is like a "first kiss, all the time", I think that is the ultimate compliment a woman can give a man. Bascially, he does it to her everytime and that is why they are currently in the predicament they are in: she cannot control herself around him. He makes her have out of body experiences and she cannot handle it. If only David could have heard her say this.
The white powder/real milk talk is weird but I think she is saying that her energy with David is 'organic and natural', nothing contrived about it. All the other 'white powder', dependable guys would and will never get to her emotions like David. Even if they never got together down the road (which I believe they did), this was the guy all others would be compared to.
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Post by tattybytatty on May 21, 2010 17:48:12 GMT -5
This is the most beautiful scene of the episode when Maddie tells Agnes to be David's like to be the first kiss.
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myfairdavid
2nd Level
"I hate you, David Addison." ~ Maddie "I know. I hate you, too, Maddie Hayes." ~ David
Posts: 473
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Post by myfairdavid on Mar 6, 2011 21:05:37 GMT -5
Just finished rewatching this epi. I was always confused because in S5, it is made clear that David is the father of Maddie's baby. Well, what doesn't make sense is she tells Agnes in this one that the baby wasn't David's. And that is what she told David as well. This makes me wonder whether or not she ever decided to really find out who the daddy was or just make up the outcome she wanted. Maybe she would be scared to know the baby was David's, so she decided it would be better not to test at all and just say it was Sam's. Then S5 comes along and we find out it's David's baby? Hard for me to understand, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something here. Bottom line is, I wonder if David EVER knew that the baby was his. From watching Yuk, you'd think he knew for sure that the baby was his because he was really hurting over the loss of the baby. And you can definitely see that. But, if it's not your baby, why would you act the way he did in Yuk? Am I the only one confused about this?
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
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Post by witness on Mar 7, 2011 2:25:52 GMT -5
Just finished rewatching this epi. I was always confused because in S5, it is made clear that David is the father of Maddie's baby. Well, what doesn't make sense is she tells Agnes in this one that the baby wasn't David's. And that is what she told David as well. This makes me wonder whether or not she ever decided to really find out who the daddy was or just make up the outcome she wanted. Maybe she would be scared to know the baby was David's, so she decided it would be better not to test at all and just say it was Sam's. Then S5 comes along and we find out it's David's baby? Hard for me to understand, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something here. Bottom line is, I wonder if David EVER knew that the baby was his. From watching Yuk, you'd think he knew for sure that the baby was his because he was really hurting over the loss of the baby. And you can definitely see that. But, if it's not your baby, why would you act the way he did in Yuk? Am I the only one confused about this? myfair, I think starting S5 with the revelation that David is the father was a way of tossing aside the peculiarities--to put it lightly--at the end of S4. If anyone should be the child's father it is David, in the sense that his extraordinary passion for Maddie--and vice-versa--is what created that life in the first place. Every time I think about or watch the scene at the end of "Tracks of My Tears," it feels like a dagger to my heart when she says, "It's not yours." Even now, typing about it hurts. It could also have been a technicality that we never saw, that on a doctor visit they determined her pregnancy was not as far along as originally thought, which meant that Sam couldn't be the father (wonder where I got this sort of idea from;)). Unfortunately, we were given hope with the knowledge that David was the father, only to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater--literally--when Maddie miscarried.
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