witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Oct 22, 2009 2:14:22 GMT -5
She obviously wanted Sam to join her in her bedroom - and something tells me that it wasn't because she wanted him to tell her a bedtime story and tuck her in. Thanks, lin, this cracked me up.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Oct 22, 2009 7:44:58 GMT -5
11. OK, time to confront the blue-eyed elephant in the room: Sam. What are your impressions of him, based on this episode? This is difficult. I have a dichotomous view of Sam, because he's a very dichotomous character. Basically, Sam is a good guy. Smart, accomplished, charming, funny, humble, etc. But at one point his "aw-shucks" persona made me say, "Ok, enough for crying out loud." But when Sam takes over paying the check, and David says, "I'll get you back, Luke," Sam's response of "I know you will" is touching because it shows he understands one thing we all know and love about Dave: he's a man of his word. Then, we have Sam's fear of flying story, which is a one-upmanship ploy that crashes and burns. So, at this point, I still have a mostly positive impression (gasp!), but there are some subtleties of manipulative behavior that don't sit well with me. Yes, it pays to increase your word power. (I had to look up dichotomous.) Good analysis.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Oct 22, 2009 7:59:06 GMT -5
Guys, perhaps my ego needs a little stroking here; it's my first time posting a question(s) and I really want to know what y'all have to say! Great question, witness. Here goes: I think David is reconsidering his vow of silence about being at Maddie's in the wee sma's. After all, he has shown up at Chez Bray (sp?) with the express purpose of declaring his feelings to her, so I think he figures his cards are gonna be on the table anyway. As for Sam, I don't think he's trying to help David save face...he's got not one ulterior motive, but two: 1. If Maddie finds out now that David was at her door, she might want to know why Sam hadn't shared this little tidbit of info with her before. 2. Sam has waltzed back into Maddie's life after what seems like a pretty long absence. Therefore, he has no idea how things stand between David and Maddie. But he's no dummy--there aren't too many reasons why a guy would show up on a gorgeous woman's doorstep at 4am and then claim what he had to say was "not important." Sam assumes David is a rival, on some level, but he doesn't know how Maddie feels. The best defense being a good offense, Sam cuts David off at the pass, effectively blocking David's access to/communication with Maddie--which he (Sam) will do again and again: -when he comes back from the head too soon -when he carries David to the car -when he goes to David's apartment (in IACM) -in the garage in IACM Perhaps this sounds too Machiavellian for a nice boy from Chicago...but I sure don't trust our Shammy! As Jen mentioned, Sam knows there is "something" up here, but not quite sure yet. He DOES know there is a difference of opinion on their relationship, a viewpoint that he enjoys by coming in as an outsider. By now Maddie has doubtless told Sam about the last few years, and about David. Probably just that he was there in the beginning and is still there, working at her convenience. She may have told Sam of his unreliability, his lack of decorum and such, but I doubt mentioned ANYTHING about a budding romance. By meeting Dave at the door, Sam knows, and knows quickly, that the man with the flowers and the drenched appearance has more than a passing interest in his gal pal. Sam knows more than Maddie at this point. So, with knowledge as power, Sam wants to keep this struggle between him and David, and not even ALLOW Maddie to have a say, thinking that he has the far better hand to play.
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Post by beesnbears on Oct 22, 2009 8:58:35 GMT -5
Great question, witness. Here goes: I think David is reconsidering his vow of silence about being at Maddie's in the wee sma's. After all, he has shown up at Chez Bray (sp?) with the express purpose of declaring his feelings to her, so I think he figures his cards are gonna be on the table anyway. As for Sam, I don't think he's trying to help David save face...he's got not one ulterior motive, but two: 1. If Maddie finds out now that David was at her door, she might want to know why Sam hadn't shared this little tidbit of info with her before. 2. Sam has waltzed back into Maddie's life after what seems like a pretty long absence. Therefore, he has no idea how things stand between David and Maddie. But he's no dummy--there aren't too many reasons why a guy would show up on a gorgeous woman's doorstep at 4am and then claim what he had to say was "not important." Sam assumes David is a rival, on some level, but he doesn't know how Maddie feels. The best defense being a good offense, Sam cuts David off at the pass, effectively blocking David's access to/communication with Maddie--which he (Sam) will do again and again: -when he comes back from the head too soon -when he carries David to the car -when he goes to David's apartment (in IACM) -in the garage in IACM Perhaps this sounds too Machiavellian for a nice boy from Chicago...but I sure don't trust our Shammy! As Jen mentioned, Sam knows there is "something" up here, but not quite sure yet. He DOES know there is a difference of opinion on their relationship, a viewpoint that he enjoys by coming in as an outsider. By now Maddie has doubtless told Sam about the last few years, and about David. Probably just that he was there in the beginning and is still there, working at her convenience. She may have told Sam of his unreliability, his lack of decorum and such, but I doubt mentioned ANYTHING about a budding romance. By meeting Dave at the door, Sam knows, and knows quickly, that the man with the flowers and the drenched appearance has more than a passing interest in his gal pal. Sam knows more than Maddie at this point. So, with knowledge as power, Sam wants to keep this struggle between him and David, and not even ALLOW Maddie to have a say, thinking that he has the far better hand to play. Witness, this is me stroking your ego!! Great question! I have always believed Sam was a good man, just not the right man. His dishonesty annoys me to the core! And Gray has nailed it from a man's point of view, I think. The "measuring up" at dinner is to be expected, I suppose. But Sam feeling as though he can leave Maddie out of any decision of who is right for her is so dang manipulative to me! Going to David's apartment in "MAddie's turn..." was crossing the line and he deserves to be called a rat bastard! David had him figured out the minute he didn't admit having met him at 4am that morning. Can you tell Sam annoys me??!!
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Post by jpen on Oct 22, 2009 14:15:40 GMT -5
In essence, David drowned all his most attractive qualities--the ones that would make Maddie choose him over Sam--in that oddly-colored (seriously!) wine. Jen, you crack me up! I always figured that was cranberry juice because the only red wine that even remotely resembles that color is Pinot Noir. And Pinot, as far as I know, was not a common grape of choice until it was showcased in the hit film Sideways (2000). So, there could not have been a worse facsimilie of Cab or Merlot at that dinner table. Witness, you're probably right about the cranberry juice...according to Gray's list, Ocean Spray was one of the commercials!! ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Oct 22, 2009 15:01:55 GMT -5
In light of what Gray said about men measuring up and jpen's question of whether David getting drunk or not could have changed the course of the evening:
Does anyone else squirm a little for David when it appears he has over indulged? Especially when they start talking about college, jobs, patents...the "resume" gray mentioned?
To this day I still feel David's sense of not measuring up to Maddie's standards of what type of man she would want is sadly confirmed in his mind. ...does that make sense? Hence his insecurities in telling her how he feels about her.
Don't you think David has always kind of had that in the back of his mind...wondering if she would go for someone like him.
That whole scene is really fabulous! Emmy winner for Bruce, am I correct?
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Post by lin212 on Oct 22, 2009 15:51:40 GMT -5
In light of what Gray said about men measuring up and jpen's question of whether David getting drunk or not could have changed the course of the evening: Does anyone else squirm a little for David when it appears he has over indulged? Especially when they start talking about college, jobs, patents...the "resume" gray mentioned? To this day I still feel David's sense of not measuring up to Maddie's standards of what type of man she would want is sadly confirmed in his mind. ...does that make sense? Hence his insecurities in telling her how he feels about her. Don't you think David has always kind of had that in the back of his mind...wondering if she would go for someone like him. That whole scene is really fabulous! Emmy winner for Bruce, am I correct? bees, I definitely squirm when Sam asks David where he went to school. The look on David's face - then he says something about hoping to finish up one day...very uncomfortable. I too think that David must wonder if his lack of "credentials" taints his acceptability. Remember in A Trip to the Moon when he accuses Maddie of being ashamed of their relationship? He also mentions it again in Maddie Hayes Gets Married when asking Maddie if she has told her parents about Walter. And yes, definitely an Emmy winning performance! Sidebar: Why does Sam say that Maddie visited him at school in Boston? Yale is in New Haven.
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Post by beesnbears on Oct 22, 2009 19:02:11 GMT -5
Here's a question (3-parter): It's obvious David does not want Maddie to know about him being on her doorstep at 4am. Why do you think he almost lets slip that he and Sam have already met? Why do you think Sam pretends they haven't? Is Sam helping Dave save face, or does he have an ulterior motive? Guys, perhaps my ego needs a little stroking here; it's my first time posting a question(s) and I really want to know what y'all have to say! He almost lets it slip because he assumed Sam had told her, at least by the time they got to the restaurant. David was trying to see if Sam was forthcoming with that fact. Sam pretends they haven't met because he knows he will have some explaining to do and he's not ready to insert David into his and Maddie's relationship. Completely an ulterior motive. He doesn't care about David's face!!
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Post by beesnbears on Oct 22, 2009 19:04:44 GMT -5
Jen, you crack me up! I always figured that was cranberry juice because the only red wine that even remotely resembles that color is Pinot Noir. And Pinot, as far as I know, was not a common grape of choice until it was showcased in the hit film Sideways (2000). So, there could not have been a worse facsimilie of Cab or Merlot at that dinner table. Witness, you're probably right about the cranberry juice...according to Gray's list, Ocean Spray was one of the commercials!! ;D That really is nasty looking juice!!! Anybody notice that someone slirps and gulps it...not sure who it is, but I think it's David. ;D
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Oct 22, 2009 21:57:01 GMT -5
Completely an ulterior motive. He doesn't care about David's face!! bees, you are too funny.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 22, 2009 22:10:26 GMT -5
2. David, in the opening scene: Is he really thinking that Maddie "got horizonty" with Mr. Anonymous? (For fun: What other explanations do you think he could dream up for Sam's presence at Maddie's house?)
Oh yeah, he's really worried that Sam is the anonymous stranger - I also guessed that maybe Dave thought Sam was a gigolo!!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 22, 2009 22:10:51 GMT -5
3. Why does David want to refuse the Johnson case?
David feels betrayed, therefore he's identifying with the assumed 'victim', the wife, and blurting out all those bitter remarks. He's obviously not ready to confront all these feelings with Maddie, so it's making him really uncomfortable!
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Post by jpen on Oct 22, 2009 23:32:43 GMT -5
In light of what Gray said about men measuring up and jpen's question of whether David getting drunk or not could have changed the course of the evening: Does anyone else squirm a little for David when it appears he has over indulged? Especially when they start talking about college, jobs, patents...the "resume" gray mentioned? To this day I still feel David's sense of not measuring up to Maddie's standards of what type of man she would want is sadly confirmed in his mind. ...does that make sense? Hence his insecurities in telling her how he feels about her. Don't you think David has always kind of had that in the back of his mind...wondering if she would go for someone like him. That whole scene is really fabulous! Emmy winner for Bruce, am I correct? Yes, bees, I absolutely agree--Bruce is so amazing in this scene, and yet it's the main reason I have trouble watching this episode. That moment lin mentioned--"Coupla different places, actually..."--pretty much sums it up...and I just want to cry for him, or reach into the TV and say, "Hey, Dave, lay off the vino!"
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Oct 23, 2009 1:55:13 GMT -5
Ok, I suppose it's time to answer my own question(s), since my ego is pret-ty smooth now. I think Dave almost lets it slip because a)he sees Sam's familiar mug, which causes him to forget that there are repercussions, i.e., further questions associated with the revelation that they have already "met" or b)he figures putting it out there would be a way of easing into laying his heart on the table. To paraphrase jen, Dave plans to lay it down anyway, why not go in the side door?
As for why Sam pretends the 4am visit didn't happen, you all have sufficiently--and eloquently (as always)--answered that one. But I believe Sam is in a sense helping Dave save face, because he seemed to show Dave some sympathy during the 4am exchange, offering twice to wake Maddie. But since David said twice "it's not important" Sam may have perceived this as "Hmmmm...the guy's embarrassed and wants to keep it under wraps." On the other hand, there is an ulterior motive judging from the way Sam looks at Dave as he says, "Nice to meet ya!": a look that implies, "Now's not the time, pal. Don't get me in trouble."
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Oct 23, 2009 2:26:53 GMT -5
Don't you think David has always kind of had that in the back of his mind...wondering if she would go for someone like him. Yes, and he certainly addresses it during the fight with Maddie in IACM: "You want some guy, went to a great school, great mug, nice manners..."
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