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Post by sandra on Feb 13, 2011 19:32:52 GMT -5
I'll be glad to read that tomorrow. I really should close my eyes now, here it's already 1:45 am... ah, when you get carried away by your 'essedness... Oh, and I can agree with what you say about at least some of David's actions contributing to the result of Maddie's ending up with Sam. So glad you jumped in, Diane! Good night for now.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 13, 2011 20:39:19 GMT -5
Leave you kids alone for one afternoon and look what happens!! ;D Just to add my 1/2 cent worth....I think David was ready to tell Maddie how he felt about her in the rain, at the restaurant, sitting on the trunk in his apartment and even when he was waiting for her in her office. Which, by the way, made his silence in the office scene of "I Am Curious..." that much more stunning, powerful...heartbreaking. As far as why Maddie ended up in Sam's arms....sigh.....a multitude of reasons, one being Sam kept interrupting and getting the way, but I believe she was simply bored that night David followed her...in a rut with the romance in her life. Remember, she did head home after the bar fiasco and that's when she got the phone call from her old friend...ex boyfriend...Sam. I've always thought she was just looking for friendship and companionship, but with David's antics and his lack of speaking up when things started getting more serious with Sam than I think she had bargained for, she began to doubt what she really felt in her heart and began thinking that maybe she should just place a safe bet and settle for Sam. AND as far as WHY David didn't speak up? He began doubting himself and his ability to be the kind of man Maddie needed and wanted to be happy. I mean, Sam was the 1987 "poster" for People magazine...... . I can totally see David being a little intimidated by his good looks and his smarts. Ok...sorry to intrude...carry on!!
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 1:05:26 GMT -5
LOL bees, well, we all damn sure believe in passion, don't we? Your analysis sounds completely logical to me btw! Comes basically near to what I feel about the issue.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 14, 2011 6:14:57 GMT -5
Oh, Diane, you'll never know HOW happy I am to have you here, so nice to have a person who thinks like you (or very alike at least ) But she also knows in her heart of hearts what David was trying to say to her, and she is just not sure at that point if she is ready to hear it yet. This is the most amazing thing I've ever heard! I never thought about it this way, not untill now of course... This is just a perfect explanation of everything, so simple, but so true! Thank you for this, Diane! I think if she had made a conscious decision, she would be much more self assured. Our Maddie has made both good and bad decisions.....but when she is sure of what she is doing, she stands up strong.....not the picture of the woman I see after her night with the spaceman! Agree on that too! Maddie would never hurt David on purpose, she is not that kind of person and to think of her like she is a cold monster who has invented the whole plan to sleep with Sam just to prove something or to hurt her David - is very, very, very wrong. It is not about Maddie.
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 14, 2011 6:27:36 GMT -5
AND as far as WHY David didn't speak up? He began doubting himself and his ability to be the kind of man Maddie needed and wanted to be happy. This is a very good point beesnbears, and it makes sense... BUT why not let the lady to decide it herself? I mean by keeping silence he leaves her (and himself!) in the dark! She can only rely on her inner voice and her feelings, that maybe he loves her and maybe he feels the way she feels. What I mean is: you can choose and make your decision only if you have something/someone to make this choice from or decision about. Such a pleasure to have this discussion with all of you, guys!!!!
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 6:40:18 GMT -5
Maddie would never hurt David on purpose, she is not that kind of person and to think of her like she is a cold monster who has invented the whole plan to sleep with Sam just to prove something or to hurt her David - is very, very, very wrong. It is not about Maddie. I think by now it's clear that I didn't mean it that way! I obviously didn't explain myself well. I only said: she is a grown woman, and she is responsible for her actions.
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 6:55:17 GMT -5
I mean by keeping silence he leaves her (and himself!) in the dark! She can only rely on her inner voice and her feelings, that maybe he loves her and maybe he feels the way she feels. The more crucial it was to encourage him a little to express what she already suspected he wanted to tell her. But I think we've found the solution in Diane's analysis: Maddie wasn't ready to hear that yet. So I say: David was confused and self-conscious. Maddie was maybe afraid of what he was about to say. So, they both had contributed their share to how it went. Good point, Goldie. If you want to make a decision, you have to know the options, agree. But then I daresay you should also make your best effort to find out what these options are. Completely agree! And thanks to bees and Diane for giving us new input here! As Goldie and I seem to repeat always the same arguments - ha, we have kind of a true blue ML-conversation here: "You're wrong!" - "No, I'm not!" - "Are too!" ... ;D So great!
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 6:59:31 GMT -5
Oh, Diane, you'll never know HOW happy I am to have you here, so nice to have a person who thinks like you (or very alike at least ) Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, sis! Diane promised she'll explain David's side, too. I'm counting on you here, Diane!
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Feb 14, 2011 7:03:43 GMT -5
So, they both had contributed their share to how it went. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they both... someone more ( I even know who ), someone less but they both, agree, agree But then I daresay you should also make your best effort to find out what these options are. But what if this handsome cute "option" doesn't want to be found?
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Post by Hazel on Feb 14, 2011 8:46:29 GMT -5
I've given my take on Maddie what I think has brought her to be the person she is elsewhere, and here's my take on Maddie at this moment:
Maddie has been, for lack of evidence to the contrary (not to mention a pretty decent guess based on her character), a celibate 30-something for a while now. She inhabits an office with an oversexed man who regales her with his exploits every other morning, and to make things worse, she is powerfully (and to her mind, inexplicably) attracted to this guy while remaining sexually frustrated. Their relationship is coming to a critical juncture-- every episode up to this has fanned the flames, and it's getting out of control-- she senses something's gotta give. Does she know what that will/should be? Nope. She is terribly confused by her feelings for David, uncertain about his true feelings for her (yes, even after everything-- it happens), and insecure about her sexual self to boot. Separate and apart from David, she's not only feeling "restless" but needs to assure herself that she's still in the game. Her days as a top model are behind her, she's barely keeping her head above water in a new career, and she's reminded on a daily basis of her complete lack of a personal life. The fact that those reminders come from someone she loves to has to be painful, no matter how much of a joke they may seem, so she wants to prove herself apart from him. This makes sense to me, and *ducking tomatoes* I actually think it's a good thing that she sleeps with Sam before taking another step with David. Granted, better protection should have been used all around, but I think it helped Maddie get some reality about her choices, gave her some sense of control, and forced the issue with David as well as herself. Of course David's the man she wants, but she wasn't 100% mentally there yet, and I think Sam crystallized it for her. JMO, YMMV, natch.
David's a whole other kettle of fish, but I can see his reasons and limitations too.
I don't think anyone does anything "wrong" per se in all of this. They are just being who they are, and doing what they are capable of. I may express incredulity at their choices, but I can't blame them for being who they are. This is the twisty path they needed to walk to get where they ended up, and up until the Walter train marriage, I feel that they were written in character. Though I would change the plot, I wouldn't change their authentic character movement, if that makes sense.
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 9:00:17 GMT -5
Hazel, this makes totally sense. Of course, they're both acting completely in character during the Sam arc. This is not about blaming anyone. I think we're just all trying to express our frustration with the development. Good point, you say maybe sleeping with Sam helped her to take a step into the right direction - of course! I never saw it that way, but definitely - hadn't she tried it with spaceman, maybe she'd always asked herself what if it had worked out? Having tried this spiceless plate, she knew for sure that it's not her taste - no matter how healthy it may be. No tomatoes for you, Hazel! I can understand Maddie's frustration too, but I still wouldn't call David oversexed. His teasing is flippant - yes; lewd - sure. But his true values, especially about love and relationships, are apparent, also to Maddie, I think.
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Feb 14, 2011 9:54:12 GMT -5
Good point, you say maybe sleeping with Sam helped her to take a step into the right direction - of course! I never saw it that way, but definitely - hadn't she tried it with spaceman, maybe she'd always asked herself what if it had worked out? Having tried this spiceless plate, she knew for sure that it's not her taste - no matter how healthy it may be. No tomatoes for you, Hazel! . I like this idea too - she experienced Sam and in doing so she gained some confidence in herself (partook of the cornflakes and fruits - mmm very nutritious) and then she went for the good stuff (the full breakfast, sausage, egg, bacon mmmmmmmm!Now this tastes good!) LOL Only kidding, I know she's not callous like that - but I do see where you're coming from with finding her feet with her sexuality :-)
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Post by diane on Feb 14, 2011 10:03:20 GMT -5
Sorry I didn't get back to this last night....darned that real life, anyway!
I am glad that I got to read Hazel's response before I went on to David......it is very well stated, and I can see some of the possibilities for Maddie's reasons for sleeping with Sam.. I'm not quite sure I am there yet......but I definitely go with the totally confused.
And I completely agree that the Maddie/Sam coupling had to happen, if only to crystallize what is to come after.
Now....oh my David. I love David Addison -- he is smart, and funny, and fun with an absolute heart of gold. He is REAL! He is the class clown and the center of attention in almost every room he enters. But funny thing about those class clowns....sometimes all the noise and bravado is used to hide insecurities.
David knows he loves this woman, and he also knows that she has been reminding him for over two years that he is "a preposterous human being". I think he has some feeling that Maddie is superior to him....maybe socially, maybe morally. I think we have all been in a situation in whcih we felt we were not quite "classy" enough. David lived this every day. And I think, until he comes out on the other side of all this mess, he really wouldn't be able to express the confidence and resolve that we see in "Father Knows Last".
That said...and I am sorry, Sandra, I don't think the confession of love would have happened that night in the rain. First of all, both that night, and the night in the restaurant, his great quest to make his confession has been prodded --- the first night by Joan Tenowitz, and the second by Bert and Agnes. I do believe his motives are real and true, but at these particular moments, when push comes to shove, he won't follow through.
I think when he went to Maddie's, he was determined to tell her, but even if Sam had not answered the door, I think something would have happened. One unkind word or look from Maddie (you smell awful, what the hell are you doing here looking like that at 3 AM?), and I think David would have folded like a house of cards. I said Maddie wasn't ready to hear his confession -- I'm also sure that David, in spite of his true feelings, wasn't sure enough of himself to say it.
Another example is the second night at the restaurant. Everybody always wants to know why Maddie didn't send Sam away so they could finish. Why didn't David? How difficult could it have been to ask Sam for a few more minutes......expecially if he was that determined. But his fear and uncertainty allows him .....heck, catapults him into the sad and horrid scene that just lets him be washed over by Sam's accomplishments and familiarity with Maddie. That in turn makes him so much more uncertain, and allows him the excuse of drowning himself in the wine bottle. He doesn't even need to try and measure up -- so he goes in the opposite direction, making their differences all that more obvious!
And Maddie, who in some confused way, really wants both David and Sam to like and respect each other, ends up being embarassed, and even more confused. And Sam having to deal with David's shortcomings and getting him home is like the icing on the cake.
And, that for me brings this discussion full circle.
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Feb 14, 2011 10:04:05 GMT -5
Every person is absolutely responsible for their own actions......but I also do think some of David's actions helped push Maddie into Sam's arms. . I hadn't thought of it like that before- it's so great when someone offers a different angle. I LOVE this episode. Do you mean like when David won't express how he feels but he'll follow her all over town? That he didn't stop and listen to her properly when she was opening up to him on a deep level about feeling lonely, restless etc. ? She reached her emotional plateau with him and he should have realised this- taken the opportunity to talk about his growing feelings for her- instead he lets her walk off in that mood without putting his cards on the table.
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Post by sandra on Feb 14, 2011 10:14:21 GMT -5
Thanks Diane for sharing your POV - that's something I can live with. Because you're giving credit to David that it's not something that's rooted in him not wanting to be taking the first step, but in his deep insecurity.
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