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Post by beesnbears on Oct 27, 2009 21:15:36 GMT -5
Great questions Lin!!
I'm probably the only one who thinks about titles and/or music related choices the writers make on ML, but I just love finding little tidbits of stuff.
I can't remember if I read something about this episodes title on this site...I looked and couldn't find it, but that doesn't mean it's not there...
Anyway, I'm assuming that "Maddie's Turn to Cry" is a poke at the song by Lesley Gore "Judy's Turn to Cry". It's a sequel to the song "It's My Party" (and I'll Cry If I Want to) and was a hit in the early 60's.
The lyrics are from a friend of Judy's point of view (I'm guessing) so it's the opposite gender who feels jilted for another lover, but this is about a love triangle.
Just a sample:
Oh, when Judy left with Johnny at my party And came back wearing his ring I sat down and cried my eyes out, Now that was a foolish thing!
Well, it hurt me so to see them dance together, I felt like making a scene. Then my tears just fell like raindrops 'Cause Judy's smile was so mean.
Oh, one night I saw them kissin' at a party, So I kissed some other guy. Johnny jumped up and he hit him, 'Cause he still loved me, that's why.
Thanks for indulging me!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Oct 27, 2009 21:20:32 GMT -5
Welcome back since!! Since you've been gone since, we haven't been able to make sense of the two cents of sense that we scence makes sense... Make sense??!! Awww Bees, this makes so much sense for Since lol... I'm actually on a conference call so I'm reading right now but I'm coming in very soon to answer some questions.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Oct 27, 2009 21:28:31 GMT -5
Great questions Lin!! I'm probably the only one who thinks about titles and/or music related choices the writers make on ML, but I just love finding little tidbits of stuff. I can't remember if I read something about this episodes title on this site...I looked and couldn't find it, but that doesn't mean it's not there... Anyway, I'm assuming that "Maddie's Turn to Cry" is a poke at the song by Lesley Gore "Judy's Turn to Cry". It's a sequel to the song "It's My Party" (and I'll Cry If I Want to) and was a hit in the early 60's. The lyrics are from a friend of Judy's point of view (I'm guessing) so it's the opposite gender who feels jilted for another lover, but this is about a love triangle. Bees I think you are on to something here!!!
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Post by beesnbears on Oct 27, 2009 21:37:48 GMT -5
6. Why do you think Sam chooses this particular moment to propose? Do you think it was planned or was it a spur of the moment question? Been thinking about this one...this is probably something that should be discussed with a great group of friends in a bar with a cocktail in hand... I agree with those that said he came to town to reunite with Maddie and maybe not initially thinking of proposing. However, I do think he was thinking marriage eventually so he could sport a trophy wife at NASA. But when he saw his competition for Maddie's affections he proposed. He did this thinking it would be the final nail in the coffin for whatever HADN'T happen yet between Maddie and David. He knew there was something between them and since MAddie wasn't offering any information he was afraid to ask. It was none of his damn business anyway, right?!
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Post by jpen on Oct 27, 2009 21:44:53 GMT -5
Hey guys! Sorry to be late to the party...had to put my passel of sickies to bed. Anyway, terrific questions, lin...I don't know where to begin. I DO know I've been ROFL'ing reading your answers--and I've learned a few things...thanks, gray! (guys don't care? Really?! ) OK, on to the q's... 1. In the opening scene, Sam asks Maddie if she is okay. Why?Gray hit this one square: Sam knows something is up with Maddie. Even if she had been fully responsive during the "boot knocking" ( ;D), between the tension at the table the night before and David's fairly clear feelings ("Rat bastard"), Sam knows the way forward is not gonna be smooth. He does have the advantage, however, of being "in the saddle" (as it were)...maybe he thinks if he can ferret out Maddie's hesitation, he can shoot it down (just to continue the Western metaphor...) Shows how little he knows Maddie, don't it?
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Post by jpen on Oct 27, 2009 21:48:34 GMT -5
2. In both Blonde on Blonde and Sam and Dave, David plans to tell Maddie about his feelings for her, but is thwarted by Sam. In this episode, David finally has the opportunity to talk to Maddie - in the office, in the car and in his apartment - yet he doesn't. Why not? I have always thought that he appears to act oblivious to Maddie's questioning in the office because he feels he has already lost her. So, to save face, he invents Monique, makes up an excuse for coming to the restaurant (Bert) and then acts as if nothing else was going on at all. This would have been totally different had Maddie been told by Sam that he was at her door the night before. The thing is though, Maddie knows better because she knows him well enough to know that when David drinks it's usually for a reason other than just to drink... In the car scenes pretty much the same thing except he actually feels as if he has been betrayed by Maddie, so his emotions are everywhere concerning her. In his apt., he is so shocked she is there...at 4am...hmmm, did they do that on purpose?...and then she starts hammering him 90mph with questions and what does David usually do in that situation? Clams up or walks away. Once they are sitting on the trunk I think he sees that Maddie is coming to her own realization of what Sam means to her and really, THAT is what he wants her to do; to make her own decision about him and her. Wow...I can't say it any better than this. Brava, bees!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 27, 2009 21:53:45 GMT -5
Agree, bees. Maddie doesn't run away from this kiss. But I also think she realizes that David really loves her - not in a "flavor of the month" way, but REALLY. His kiss is tender, quiet, honest. Glad you liked the tune - it seemed to say it all. Yup, this smooch is significantly different from those we saw in Dream Sequence, Big Man, etc....those were just raw, sensual kisses where they were devouring each other. This was tender...this was for REAL. Right on, gray IMO, it was the best, most real kiss they ever had, makes my heart melt every time!
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Post by jpen on Oct 27, 2009 21:57:14 GMT -5
3. In Sam and Dave, Maddie puts her personal life before her professional responsibility by choosing dinner with Sam over the McLafferty case. The next day, she does the exact opposite. What has changed?
Well, I really think she's playing the Avoidance card again...this time, with Sam. She knows how she felt about their interlude the night before, and going out with him again will surely lead to...staying in with him, if you know what I mean. Maddie's pretty darn conflicted about the whole idea of being an "Us" with Sam (as is obvious in the car conversation), and the stakeout gives her the perfect opportunity to, well, avoid the whole question.
Except she can't. Because Damn Sam stays up making lamb til 2am.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 27, 2009 21:57:37 GMT -5
2. In both Blonde on Blonde and Sam and Dave, David plans to tell Maddie about his feelings for her, but is thwarted by Sam. In this episode, David finally has the opportunity to talk to Maddie - in the office, in the car and in his apartment - yet he doesn't. Why not? I have always thought that he appears to act oblivious to Maddie's questioning in the office because he feels he has already lost her. So, to save face, he invents Monique, makes up an excuse for coming to the restaurant (Bert) and then acts as if nothing else was going on at all. This would have been totally different had Maddie been told by Sam that he was at her door the night before. The thing is though, Maddie knows better because she knows him well enough to know that when David drinks it's usually for a reason other than just to drink... In the car scenes pretty much the same thing except he actually feels as if he has been betrayed by Maddie, so his emotions are everywhere concerning her. In his apt., he is so shocked she is there...at 4am...hmmm, did they do that on purpose?...and then she starts hammering him 90mph with questions and what does David usually do in that situation? Clams up or walks away. Once they are sitting on the trunk I think he sees that Maddie is coming to her own realization of what Sam means to her and really, THAT is what he wants her to do; to make her own decision about him and her. Wow...I can't say it any better than this. Brava, bees! I concur! Dave walks a fine line between heart-on-his-sleeve and utter humiliation, and he's already been humiliated in this triangle, so he figures the best thing to do is wait and let her come to him. Excellently said!
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 27, 2009 22:00:04 GMT -5
3. In Sam and Dave, Maddie puts her personal life before her professional responsibility by choosing dinner with Sam over the McLafferty case. The next day, she does the exact opposite. What has changed?Well, I really think she's playing the Avoidance card again...this time, with Sam. She knows how she felt about their interlude the night before, and going out with him again will surely lead to...staying in with him, if you know what I mean. Maddie's pretty darn conflicted about the whole idea of being an "Us" with Sam (as is obvious in the car conversation), and the stakeout gives her the perfect opportunity to, well, avoid the whole question. Except she can't. Because Damn Sam stays up making lamb til 2am. Totally, Jen, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Maddie actually WANTS to spend time with David. Kind of like, after learning about the fake Monique thing, she's curious to see if he will revisit the missing part of his speech from dinner.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Oct 27, 2009 22:04:12 GMT -5
7. Discuss the significance of the trunk scene (sigh). Is it a turning point in their relationship? Does it tell David what he wants to know?
Most definitely, first of all, Maddie is the first to say "I hate you, David Addison", which he correctly interprets to be a declaration of love, so he feels safe to return it. He's not giving an inch until she does (and vice versa...). And for her to just crumble into his arms like that is such a huge deal for Maddie to do, it tells him enough to give him that smug confidence we see in IACM.
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Post by jpen on Oct 27, 2009 22:26:01 GMT -5
4. What is happening in the drive and talk scene when they are on the way to see Elaine Johnson? What game are they playing? This is really an amazing scene, in terms of what is revealed. David, clearly, is takin' a trip down Da Nile...but Maddie is actually relatively forthcoming. She admits that she's confused about Sam, and the reason she's confused is that "Every time I turn around, there you are." She puts it out there that David is jealous (which is patently true, of course, and also lets him know that she's not buying the Herbert Viola Promotion story). She even gives David one of the reasons she is hesitant to take things further with him: because "you take nothing about me, my life, or my business seriously."
Of course, she also railroads him, talks over him, and generally doesn't give the conversation a chance to take a more fruitful (mature) direction...which is its own form of Avoidance. The same thing happens in her office in IACM.
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Post by jpen on Oct 27, 2009 22:27:39 GMT -5
I've got a question...why is Maddie so lovey-dovey toward Sam in her office? (And is it just me, or do you simultaneously cringe and get ticked that we never saw her approach David that way? )
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Post by sinceifell4u on Oct 27, 2009 23:26:56 GMT -5
I've got a question...why is Maddie so lovey-dovey toward Sam in her office? (And is it just me, or do you simultaneously cringe and get ticked that we never saw her approach David that way? ) It is not just you J!!! The word 'HATE' is such a strong word, so I'll just say I have a tempestuous disdain for those moments when Maddie is seemly affectionate towards Sam. P.S. JPen I absolutely adored your remix!!! ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Oct 27, 2009 23:33:11 GMT -5
Thank you Lin... I bask in the glory of your questions~ 1. In the opening scene, Sam asks Maddie if she is okay. Why? Simply put, Sam felt the lack of passion in their intimate act. Maddie's energy was divided and Sam received the short end of the stick. It reminds me of a song that says, "Your body's here with me but your mind is on the other side of town" by the O'Jays.
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