witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Nov 7, 2009 3:11:40 GMT -5
Is it just me, or did anyone else kinda sorta know all along it wasn't Sam in the bed? When "Sam" stirred and made a noise, it sounded more like David. I just wanted Maddie to be done with the goodbye-grope speech already to find out if my suspicion was true! Was it ever...
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Post by diane on Nov 7, 2009 8:33:55 GMT -5
NOW, when I watch, I can clearly see that it's David, but on March 31, 1987, I was floored. Given the reaction of millions of viewers, I don't think I was alone.
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Post by rose35 on Nov 7, 2009 10:06:21 GMT -5
Is it just me, or did anyone else kinda sorta know all along it wasn't Sam in the bed? When "Sam" stirred and made a noise, it sounded more like David. I just wanted Maddie to be done with the goodbye-grope speech already to find out if my suspicion was true! Was it ever... Wow gosh i dont remember back that far, i'm sure i was so anxious and bouncing off the walls knowing the show was almost over wondering what was going too happen!.
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Post by rose35 on Nov 7, 2009 10:10:53 GMT -5
9. Bruce has remarked in an interview that during the final bed scene, David says, "I love you, Maddie." Big question.......can you see it? Does it make a difference to you?Yes, I can see it, but it's hard because Cybill's hand is on Bruce's cheek. Does it make a difference? Yeah, to me it does. All up until now Dave was adamant that he did NOT have to make a verbal statement...that his deeds proved his love for Maddie. Dave also, by now has gotten it through his thick skull that hearing those words are indeed important to her, and he finally reciprocates. Yea she said she loved him when she thought she was talking to Sam but the fact remains it came out of her larynx. Finally, in the sack, they are even...they have both shown their love by their deeds, spoken their love through their words and are about to consummate their love...off camera of course. Darned PG rated networks. AMEN to what you wrote GRAY! Love it! I was just thinking about todays tv shows and they sure show a heck of alot more during love scenes then back in the 80's .
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Post by rose35 on Nov 7, 2009 10:16:02 GMT -5
1. Why does Maddie interrupt David's attempt to explain why they should discuss the proposal? What do you think would have followed, "Why? Why? Maddie, I..." 1. This scene...I just love this scene! I think it's brilliantly written and acted, but I have to say, I've watched it probably a dozen times in the last few days (I know--get. a. life!), and I'm still not sure I know exactly what's going on in the minds of our dynamic duo. You have David, lying in wait to talk to Maddie, and Maddie fleeing (or trying to) from the conversation; then you have Maddie talking over him, and refusing to listen, while he tries to get in a word edgewise; then she turns the tables on him, and demands that he talk, and he clams up! It's symbolic, to me, of the one-step-forward, two-back progression of their relationship. These two have a tough time getting on the same page--not to mention, a tough time listening to each other--and this confrontation is no exception. Now, to answer your question, witness: I think Maddie cuts him off because: 1) she feels guilty about what happened the night before--guilty on both David's and Sam's behalf, and she doesn't want to have to own up to her behavior (in particular, she does not want to explain WHY she showed up at David's at 4am); and 2) she is still confused, still doesn't know what to do (and doesn't know "why she doesn't know")...and David's input will only increase her confusion. It's classic Maddie avoidance, so much so that her responses aren't even really logical: "It's none of your damn business!" (um, Maddie, honey, you kinda made it his business when you kissed him on the trunk) and "What difference will it make?" (if it makes no difference, why are you asking him to tell you how he feels?). As for David's response, I can imagine the following: "Why? Why? Maddie, I...care about you. I care about what happens to you." But here's what I would've liked to hear: "Why? Why? Maddie, I...think there's something here, and I think you came to me last night because you know it. You can't marry that guy, Maddie--he doesn't--" (David cuts himself off...and you can imagine the rest! ;D) Yes Jpen ahhhh more things that could have been said during this scene. You sure know the right things David could have said. I know we all think why didnt they say this why didnt they do this, but then i think would we have wanted things to change in the end scene? Would it have been better if they didnt argue ,ahh we will never know but its fun to dream. Maybe David could have spoken up but Maddie being the way she is she could have still been mad and told David it didnt mattter and he was too late then he could have left. AHHH there goes my mind. Better stop LOL
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Post by jpen on Nov 8, 2009 12:49:30 GMT -5
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 8, 2009 20:43:39 GMT -5
OR...was it one of those things Bruce wanted to change in the script..... inquiring minds want to know!!
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Post by beesnbears on Nov 8, 2009 20:45:49 GMT -5
NOW, when I watch, I can clearly see that it's David, but on March 31, 1987, I was floored. Given the reaction of millions of viewers, I don't think I was alone. ditto! ;D I remember thinking it was funny, but then saying to myself: "Oh David...she's not gonna like this!!"
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1987
1st Level
Learning something every day
Posts: 210
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Post by 1987 on May 20, 2010 12:58:43 GMT -5
This episode was near perfection for me. And I must say that I never even watched the series until the Sam arc aired. Apparently all my mom's co-workers (and everyone else in the country) were talking about this show and what was happening so I remember her coming into my room to watch "Sam and Dave". Neither of us knew much of what was going on but I was hooked forever after those episodes.
A few of my comments: I think David not saying anything to Sam was a good decision. That was no time to make wisecracks. (As an aside, I don't think there was any 4th wall breaking in this episode which was perfect.) However, I think some of the actions and dialogue shold have been left in because I understand now why David threw the first punch and was so angry in the garage. I always felt that Sam was a little conceited and condescending but overall a nice guy. So, to see that snarly side of him would have helped with transition.
I don't think David COULD say anything to Maddie after the whole "how do you feel about me David". You can see him tearing up and swallowing after her words. I think if he had tried to verbalize his feelings he would have lost it. Bruce was soooo good at making it look like his emotions were right on the edge. So, I really think he wanted to but just couldn't. I think he was mad at himself and that's why he wrecked his office. Then, after a little while, he had gathered himself and was ready to talk to her in the garage.
Yes, Maddie needed to hear that he said "I love you". This was very hard for David and I noticed nobody has mentioned that. He's pretty much damaged goods from his relationships with Tess and Gillian. He is not a guy to just throw that phrase out there and he just recently came to terms with the fact that he was in love with Maddie. Everything was happening too fast for him and I don't think he knew how to do this. Glenn was wrestling with the macho vs. romantic David and did a beautiful job.
To me, this episode marks a loss of control on many symbolic levels. Maddie: she is so used to being in control. She wants so bad for David to take control of her passionately. At the end, she gives up her control and submits to the love she feels for him. This continues into To Heiress Human, although she fights it a little she is still enjoying this new freedom with him. The loss of control begins to wear on her during A Trip To The Moon. Then she discovers she is pregnant just when she is trying to gain control back. Maddie not in control is not a good thing as evidenced by Walter Bishop.
David: When he does finally try and assume responsibility and publicly annouce his feelings and go on a real date he can't hold it together. A laudromat in L.A.? Please. Again, I think things were happening too fast for him and he really didn't know how to give Maddie what she needed. However, as we can see in Season 4 David gains control of his life and is hopeful.
Glenn: Glenn and Cybill had a major altercation during the filming of Big Man on Mulberry St. Lawyers and agents and ABC got involved and this was never really resolved. So, when Cybill annouced her pregnancy during this time, emotions were still raw on all sides. This is when Glenn began to lose control of his show and make questionable decisions about the plot. These are the reasons for the show's demise....not the 2 sleeping toether. They could have had a lot more fun with that story.
With all this being said, I feel like the loss of control on-screen and off could have been salvaged and resolved. Time. They just ran out of it.
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Post by beesnbears on May 21, 2010 8:16:13 GMT -5
I don't think David COULD say anything to Maddie after the whole "how do you feel about me David". You can see him tearing up and swallowing after her words. I think if he had tried to verbalize his feelings he would have lost it. Bruce was soooo good at making it look like his emotions were right on the edge. So, I really think he wanted to but just couldn't. I think he was mad at himself and that's why he wrecked his office. Then, after a little while, he had gathered himself and was ready to talk to her in the garage. Yes, Maddie needed to hear that he said "I love you". This was very hard for David and I noticed nobody has mentioned that. He's pretty much damaged goods from his relationships with Tess and Gillian. He is not a guy to just throw that phrase out there and he just recently came to terms with the fact that he was in love with Maddie. Everything was happening too fast for him and I don't think he knew how to do this. Glenn was wrestling with the macho vs. romantic David and did a beautiful job. I agree. Bruce was fabulous in the office scene. And I do believe David was just so dumbfounded by the fact he and Maddie shared a kiss on the trunk in his apartment the night before, knowing it meant something between the two of them, and that Sam pays him a visit announcing his big plans for Maddie. The fact that she was actually asking him how he felt basically blew him away. How could she not know how he felt? He was hurt by Maddie's eventual answer to the questions he asked repeatedly: "When were you gonna tell me? He asked you, didn't he?" So, imo, his silence was justified in many ways.....though I scream at the TV at him everytime I watch it! ;D Those two....for all the talking they did, they didn't communicate very well at times, did they?!?
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Post by mynamesjonny on May 24, 2010 22:41:44 GMT -5
The fact that she was actually asking him how he felt basically blew him away. How could she not know how he felt? He was hurt by Maddie's eventual answer to the questions he asked repeatedly: "When were you gonna tell me? He asked you, didn't he?" So, imo, his silence was justified in many ways.....though I scream at the TV at him everytime I watch it! ;D) Of course Maddie knows how David feels! But as we all know, she's not exactly one for games & spontaneity. It is important for her that David tells her he cares for her, as that shows at least some commitment to their relationship. Unfortunately David doesn't cave, but he does make a great argument later in the episode: "I don't have to say anything. I know it, and you know it. You feel it, and I feel it.".
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on May 25, 2010 1:39:40 GMT -5
Of course Maddie knows how David feels! But as we all know, she's not exactly one for games & spontaneity. It is important for her that David tells her he cares for her, as that shows at least some commitment to their relationship. Well, it is important not only for Maddie to hear that a man really loves her, but for all women in generall! I mean "You know it and I know it, you feel it and I feel it" is very nice, but that's not enough. Neither for Maddie, no for any other woman. I think.
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Post by tattybytatty on May 25, 2010 17:14:09 GMT -5
I totally agree with you Goldilocks ... what woman does not like to hear from a man he likes her? ;D Maddie was very important to hear it from David, she is a practical woman, and only believe what you see, talk to susposições is not the way she would have liked. But in the end he said what she wanted to hear.
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Post by sandra on Nov 24, 2010 5:20:11 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the Final Facedown: how do you feel about the two slaps?I think the slaps are great......although they were certainly controversial when the episode originally aired. I kind of think that the slaps were Maddie's "barrage in the garage" so to speak. The guys had their chance to work their frustrations out during their tussle......I'm thinking she still had some frustrations to get rid of. I got tired of typing, but the stage directions for the slaps and kisses in the living room show an anger on Maddie's part......and then some real resistance to the kiss, with David being more of the aggressor. (I'll post it if anybody wants to see it). I am really glad, however, that they strayed from that and made it more of a cooperative effort.... Diane, thanks for the effort of typing the script. I think the scene in the script is really hot, and I would've liked to see it on screen - I like that thing of Maddie fighting her/their passion and then having no choice but to give in to it (a bit similar to the Zack/Rita kiss in Maddie's Dream sequence). But then again - I think it was very clever to film it the way they did, as you said, a "cooperative effort". That's it exactly, they speak everything that is needed to be said with their eyes (I can almost hear them: "It's now or never - then be it!") - the decision is made, and they both agree on it. (So no way, Maddie, and no excuse that you were only swept away or in shock - not the first, not the second and certainly not the third time! ;D) Both of them decided in that very moment that they wanted to give themselves with body, heart and soul to the person they've loved for a long time. (OMG, now it's me being swept away... ) This is clearly shown in the movement - the moment he releases her wrist she embraces him without further hesitation, and they make a simultaneous move and meet right in the middle - just perfect. That first kiss is - in spite of all the tension bulding up before and all the rolling around on the floor later - a deliberate and quite slow thing (that's how I see it) with much, much tenderness beneath and beside all the passion. And I love that we get to see that. Oh, and I absolutely love the way he cradles her head at the very first kiss! SIGH!!! The filmed version goes much more under my skin although the written scene is absolutely HOT. Great! Now I gotta take a long, really COLD shower... Ok, just wanted to share my thoughts on that scene I watched over and over again on youtube (in fact, that was it that hooked me again on ML months ago). Unfortunately my season 3 DVD hasn't arrived yet - so when I come to watch at full length, I'll be back for further comments.
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Post by sandra on Jan 17, 2011 16:16:00 GMT -5
OK, here it is. Tonight, the itch's gonna be scratched. I'm right in the middle of the episode, and I gotta take a break. Answer a part of the questions. 1. At the beginning of the episode, what do you think is the state of mind of each of the characters......Maddie....David....Sam?Maddie: confused... when she was at David's, she forgot about Sam (well, who wouldn't have? Ah... I disgress. ;D) Did you notice when, after the milk truck chase, she stopped, rooted to the spot, and remembered: "Sam!" - how there was a uncomfortable look on her face?? To her, after she and David had confessed their mutual feelings (by the unmistakeble I hate you -code), everything was crystal clear. Yes, it was! Now, she remembered - ooops, I forgot something... and ba-bing! back was her rationality thing, like OMG, I forgot to make my list of pros and cons... David: confused!! what?? isn't everything clear? What the hell is Buck Rogers talking about??! And then: how could she forget to mention that when she came to my place in the middle of the night to confess she hates me?!Sam: confused. why hasn't she said yes yet? Why isn't she grateful I'm ready to deliver her from that life she doesn't deserve? Why she's been around with that miserable loser she calls a partner and what she's been doing with him? And why the hell didn't she tell me?Oh, go figure, you rat bastard! Put two and two together and back the hell off yourself!!! 2. Does Sam believe Maddie's story about where she was the night before?Yes, and she didn't lie, BTW. OK, she didn't tell the whole truth exactly... he doesn't know what's going on, but he suspects there's more behind it than she'd say... like I said before, he isn't dumb. Therefore he's right off to David's place after having tucked her in the bed (with coat and sneakers?!?! Puh-lease!!! ) Of course, behind her back. rat bastard!3. I posted the original script scene at David's apartment. After reading this, there are a few questions:~ Is Bruce's performance more effective the way it was aired or would you prefer it the way it was written? ~Does the scene as written change or support your original opinion about Sam? Here again, like so often on ML (esp with Bruce's performances): the silence speaks volumes, but I'd like to see more of Bruce's face than of Sam's in that scene. I'd like to see more of his facial expression that is such a superb... OK, native speakers: give me the right word. A superb means to convey his emotions? Maybe. I'm sure you got what I mean. The written scene shows more of Sam the sham, shows more than the aired scene does that to him, it's more like a competition (funny: just what Maddie falsely accuses David of - competing for her!). So, it supports my original opinion. BTW, I have a question myself: how often am I allowed to say rat bastard on this forum before Diane comes over to wash out my mouth with Camay?? ~How does this written scene affect your understanding of David's reaction to Maddie the next morning? Not more than the aired scene. I don't think ti has anything to do with the way the information is brought to David or the way he reacted to it with Sam. It't just the information itself. Phew. Now, I'll go on watching. I dunno, but I gotta a strange feeling... like the best part of the ep is still ahead...?
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