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Post by lin212 on Jun 29, 2010 19:50:48 GMT -5
Convince me -- what do you like about this episode?
There are quite a few great moments in this episode. I do like the elevator scene up until the singing even though I wish they had talked out their grief rather than steal secret glances. I think Bert and Agnes do a great job. I like Bert with Maddie and especially Agnes with David. The scene in David's office is so sweet. I like the intimate way David and Maddie sit on the sofa in Joan Spring's apartment and the way Maddie grabs and holds on to his hand when talking to Dennis Spring. Scenes like this, the "meatloaf in the oven" and the romp on the ground might leave one with the impression that all is well between D and M. I do like that feeling. Unfortunately, things change in the next episode..."pals".
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Post by beesnbears on Jun 29, 2010 21:23:29 GMT -5
I agree, lin. It does feel as though all is better between them at the end of the episode despite the fact that we never actually hear them reconcile. It's almost like some of the old eps where we are left feeling hopeful because of what they didn't say but we know they feel.....does that even make any sense?!?
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Post by rose35 on Jun 29, 2010 22:25:43 GMT -5
So it looks like we all agree on the choice of songs was wrong for the elevator scene for them to sing. My question is Do you think there could have been a better song choice where we could have liked that scene better or would no songs sung at all have been better and just maybe they elevator doors just open while all was quiet?
Ok maybe another question: I think the case part could have been a whole other episode by itself and this episode could have just been about dealing with the grief of losing the baby, dont you all too? The case didnt have anything to do with their personal life at that point,when alot of times cases reflected their lives at that moment. Opinions?
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goldilocks
3rd Level
You know he is perfect for me...but you and me...we...we..
Posts: 887
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Post by goldilocks on Jun 30, 2010 4:51:00 GMT -5
Convince me -- what do you like about this episode?
Hallo everybody! I hope I'm not too late to join the discussion? While rewatching the episode I kept on thinking: what do I really like about it? And whether I do really like this episode? Of course I do, because there are some moments in it that give me a hope. I like the final scene very much, seems like old times and they are both cute in it! And the scene in the car! And the scene in the elevator is very emotional, although it could be done better in some way... And I definitely like the bloopers!
Of course the list of things that I don't like about the episode is a long one. But the most important of them: I just can't understand David, his behaviour is so weird... It is not the David we all know and love... And here is my question: before the elevator David had a strong intention to leave. They didn't talk much in the elevator, but he definitely changed his mind and didn't want to leave anymore afterwards. Why?
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Jun 30, 2010 6:03:57 GMT -5
And here is my question: before the elevator David had a strong intention to leave. They didn't talk much in the elevator, but he definitely changed his mind and didn't want to leave anymore afterwards. Why? As one of the resident dudes on the forum, I'll give it a shot goldilocks, but I'm not sure I can explain any better than the next person. In my opinion, David was still avoiding Maddie, first by staying away, and now by attempting to flee to Virginia, because he had not come to grips with the situation...the whole situation of the relationship, Maddie's departure, the pregnancy, the loss of the baby, the whole enchilada. Whatever solace he was searching had eluded him. In the elevator we had two key ingredients. His violence at the speaker, and then holding Maddie close while she too let out her pain. After the speakercide, he felt a tad better, but after holding Maddie close again, the Maddie he still deeply loves, a hurt and vulnerable Maddie, he realized that he didn't really want to leave. He wanted to be there, by her side, friends, partners, lovers, pals....whatever. His future was with her, not apart. Then again I may be wrong....
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 10:19:24 GMT -5
Thinking about David distancing himself from Maddie in the beginning......I am not sure when I happened on this thought, but it must have been a long time ago, as I have always adopted it almost as fact in my history of M&D.
I think it is logical to assume that Maddie's mother and father....or at least mother.....would have come to LA after the loss of the baby. In my thoughts, I can see David running into them at the hospital, but probably not going to Maddie's house when he knows they are there.......probably in David's mind, he was giving Maddie and her parents privacy...but in Maddie's mind, he is not there for her when she needs him most. And even though we all hope that David would have learned enough after season 4 to just do what he considers right, sometimes old habits die hard. And I think we all know, the longer you avoid an uncomfortable situation, the only thing that gets easier is avoiding it some more.
The one thing I have always enjoyed about this episode is David's attack on the speaker, and Maddie's breaking down...... their meltdowns bring them back onto the same page. That is why the stupid hymn singing and the forced levity makes me even madder. They deserved more than a few hours on the floor of the elevator in which to grieve.
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 10:22:29 GMT -5
My admission question for tonight: How can two people that have shared so much together have nothing to say when trapped in an elevator?Why do I like it? Because Maddie and David have one of their most intriguing conversations in the car. David obviously knows Maddie is taking on cases, working harder and longer simply to avoid what has happened to her, them and the baby they lost. They bicker over who is in denial and what is being denied. They are on the verge of opening up to each other..." baring their souls"...until Maddie tells David to go first. He pulls over and we (or maybe just me!) are led to believe he is going to lay it all on the line with her only to pick up a hitchhiker instead. Very convenient for David, as he still seems afraid to be the first AGAIN to admit his feelings for Maddie. But...I don't blame him one bit! I think I am with bees.....when you reflect on the car scene, David's method of avoidance is pretty darned funny.
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 10:41:47 GMT -5
Ok...here are some general reflections on the episode, prompted mainly by the script.
From the very beginning, I got the idea we were not seeing the ML we love. There is no creative beginning...we start off with the credits, and boom....no bumper, no fun......right into the middle of Maddie's heartache.
Several people have made comments about Glenn and about Kerry Ehrin. I am in agreement that Glenn's departure made a huge difference, and although Glenn says that he started to withdraw in season 4, this is actually the first episode in which he has no credit...at least to my knowledge. And although in my opinion, he did give some input to the staff that remained during season 5, it just was not the same.
When you read the script, you can see Kerry's real knowlege of David and Maddie...and her love of the story. There are so many changes in this script from written word to aired episode, that I couldn't possibly show them all. And I am not sure most non-essed people would get it anyway. But small changes in words, nuances and stage directions seem to me to make a huge difference in the aired episode. I think somebody was standing above Kerry with a big red pencil....and not for the good. There are many lines, and statements that are omitted.
There are also a lot of spelling and punctuation errors in the script, which is not typical of most ML scripts.
I also think there is a slight but discernable change in the sexual innuendo. In previous episodes, David's sexual comments have always been clever and funny. I think in this episode, we start getting comments that are more lewd, and unfunny.... crude for crude's sake. An example: in the original script, when Maddie pulls David's pants down, he is naked and makes an "uh oh..no underwear" comment. Then the script explains coverage with a black bar. It may be me, but the heart boxers are infinitely funnier.
I'll try to post some of what I consider to be the more important changes and omissions.
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 10:51:37 GMT -5
Here is the original laundry room scene:
INT. MADDIE'S LAUNDRY ROOM -- ON A LAUNDRY BASKET
...half filled with clean, folded laundry....and we MOVE UP to find....
MADDIE
...folding laundry in the middle of the night...occupied at least, if no less troubled..and as she works away, she picks up a NIGHTSHIRT...and it FALLS OPEN in front of her....and we see that it's a MATERNITY NIGHTSHIRT...with "BABY" written across the top and an ARROW pointing down.....and we move.....
CLOSE ON MADDIE
....as she sees what it is.....and before she'll let herself react....
ANOTHER ANGLE -- ON MADDIE
...as she RUMPLES it up and TOSSES it in the TRASH....and she goes quickly back to her FOLDING.....but as she does...her eyes begin to mist over......and tears begin to roll down her cheeks...and she tries to ignore it...biting her lip and folding her laundry...until in one, great unretractable SOB......she LEANS FORWARD.....hiding her head in her arms on top of the laundry pile...and cries like her heart is breaking.....and we HOLD ON HER a LONG MOMENT, then.....
move onto office scene
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 10:57:03 GMT -5
Just a small thing....the scenes in which people are pitching cases to Maddie..."I'll take the case"...there are about double the amount of people with comments that are left out, and there are a few sight gags omitted.
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 11:01:48 GMT -5
some comments between Bert and Agnes about David's whereabouts (after the superball comment):
DIPESTO: And where's Mr. Addison?
VIOLA: He's been in and out.
DIPESTO: Mostly out. (and then) In at eleven. Out at eleven fifteen. In at four thirty. If he bothers to come back in at all.
VIOLA: Well, he's serving those papers. The Anselmo case.
DIPESTO: For two weeks? Hogwash.
(scene continues with "the new and improved Blue Moon").
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 11:08:29 GMT -5
In the car sequence, during the discussions of denial, this piece of overlapping dialogue is omitted:
MADDIE: Denial is pretending like you're just fine when you're not.....bopping...quipping...singing a capella....And not only are you denying, David, you're projecting your denial onto someone else, which is why you think I'm denying...but I'm not, David...You are, David....I'm out of breath......
DAVID: Denial is working sixteen hours a day for no damn reason.....Hell, Maddie....I know prisoners with a lighter workload than you.....It just doesn't make sense....you have a personal tragedy one day.......the next day you wake up, and you're Donald Trump.
...and the two of them run out of breath at exactly the same time.
scene continues as aired
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 11:51:35 GMT -5
This is when David and Maddie are back in the car, after showing Joan the yearbook:
Maddie's at the wheel....David looks off as they drive in silence for a long, long moment and then......
DAVID: Shame.
MADDIE: Hmmm?
DAVID: Joan Spring....unless she raps this down with her husband, she's just gonna keep torturing herself.
MADDIE: Some people just aren't equipped to hash out their problems, I guess.
DAVID: Shame.
...and the pair drive in silence for an uncomfortably long interval, thirty or forty seconds perhaps....both look straight ahead...utterly oppressed by what isn't being said.
DAVID: I'm not going to be in tomorrow.
scene continues as aired.
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 12:06:24 GMT -5
This is a total scene that was skipped......after Bert is reluctant to help Agnes solve the M&D problem, and Agnes runs after MacGillicuddy:
INT. HALL -- ON MACGILLICUDDY AND DIPESTO
.....as he HEADS TOWARD the elevator and she chugs alongside
DIPESTO: MacGillicuddy...you've got to help me.
MACGILLICUDDY: What's up?
DIPESTO (rapidfire): Situation in a nut shell is hell in a handbasket...Mister Addison's leaving 'cause he thinks Miss Hayes doesn't want or need his help....and if Mr. Addison leaves, he's not gonna come back...and Miss Hayes won't do anything 'cause she thinks he's being too insensitive...when really he's just being too sensitive...and Bert's lost his mind and Mr. Addison won't listen to reason...so you're the only hope I got.
...and he stops and turns to her.....
MACGILLICUDDY: Agnes....this has been terribly upsetting for all of us...but you have to let it go...and if Mr. Addison has to leave to come to terms with this...maybe it's the best thing.
...and then he continues toward the elevators....
DIPESTO: But what if he doesn't come back?
MACGILLICUDDY: He'll come back.
ANOTHER ANGLE
...as MacGillicuddy arrives at the ELEVATOR.....and punches the button...Dipesto rounds the corner after him....
DIPESTO: But what if he doesn't? (and then) Remember the last time Mr. Addison left? Remember who took over?
CLOSE ON MACGILLICUDDY
...and as it suddenly dawns on him and a look of terror falls across his face...
MACGILLICUDDY: (under his breath, ominously) Viola.... (then to Dipesto) How can I be of service to you?
...just as the ELEVATOR DINGS OPEN...and she thoughtfully LOOKS at the ELEVATOR...then slowly at MacGillicuddy.....an idea hatching, as we.......
DISSOLVE
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Post by diane on Jun 30, 2010 12:10:07 GMT -5
FYI..regarding elevator music in the script:
There is no specific music specified for the MUZAK speaker.
The hymn singing is specified only as "Swing Low Sweet Chariot".....which certainly gives credance to the story that the episode ended up with two hymns because Cybill and Bruce had a major disagreement as to what was the right song for the scene, hence they compromised.
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