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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 21:56:39 GMT -5
Also what is the scene you hate most in this episode? Ya know, I felt rather uncomfortable when that slob gumshoe from Lou LaSalle beat up Bert. I thought it was unnecessary and a bit over the top. And does anybody actually believe that a classy outfit like LaSalle would hire a bum like that? More proof that the series was totally out of synch by this point. My thoughts exactly, gray. I can't imagine the suave Lou LaSalle hiring a guy who gets his detective vocabulary from Bugs Bunny.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 21, 2010 22:00:28 GMT -5
(a). Overall, what do you think was the intended tone of this episode: comedic? nostalgic? hopeful? dramatic?I think they were trying to do all of the above. They used some of the same type of jokes Moonlighting was known for....the fourth wall, etc.. They ran clips at the end for nostalgia and they had Annie in the mix still to stir drama. Hopeful? I think I can say yes! Even though the last 5 minutes could have been more satisfying if it were done differently. (b). Why do you think the writers decided against Maddie and David getting back together at the end of the episode?I believe the music choice with Ray Charles singing "We'll Be Together Again" was a message to viewers that Maddie and David weren't finished. Maybe it was the one thing they did right...... They left it up to us to decide their demise. As someone said: "It's in our hearts and in our minds."
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:04:33 GMT -5
1. Do you find David's behavior at the beginning of the episode, in particular in his confrontation with Maddie, consistent with the rest of Season 5?
As gray said, it's consistent with the rest of the Annie arc, in which David seems to have lost his moral compass entirely. One of the things I always loved about David was that he had a very definite sense of right and wrong--not always a conventional sense, but a definite one. And usually, he came down on the side of compassion (think of his decision in "Witness," or his defense of Stephen Brower), which by its very definition means thinking of others. In his interactions with Annie, David has thought nothing of hurting not only her invisible husband, but also the woman who has been his partner, best friend, mother of his child.
I love when Maddie calls him on his "detachment" in their confrontation, when he says it's "none of his business" what Annie decides about her marriage: "Well, if you really believe that, I have nothing more to say to you."
Go, Maddie! I would've kicked him out, too.
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:12:13 GMT -5
2. What do you think we learn from Maddie's reaction to Agnes & Bert's engagement announcement?
I loved her genuine happiness--she is really pleased for them, and there's no sense of bitterness in her congratulations. Also, it was great to see her celebrate with the staff--she's come a long way in her interactions with them.
But I felt like her chugging champagne from the bottle struck a false note. (In an episode that was a veritable symphony of false notes, I guess it's hardly important, but it still bugged me.)Maddie has definitely become "more laid-back, more loosey-goosey," but Ms. Hayes always uses a glass!
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:14:58 GMT -5
3. As we have discussed many times, Agnes & Bert's characters serve to highlight/reflect/contrast with Maddie & David's. Do Maddie's and David's reactions to Agnes & Bert's respective anxieties reveal anything about their own take on marriage and relationships? Do you think their attitudes have changed over the five seasons?I think David's conversation with Bert in the beginning is David's attempt to play the "part" that Bert would expect him to play...cynical about marriage and quite possibly any relationship that required commitment. But, I think we know that David has always wanted a committed relationship with Maddie and maybe down the road eventually marriage. He admits to this idea ever so slightly when he sees that what he is telling Bert is not helping him at all. So he pulls his head out of the trash can and tells him if he loves Agnes and Agnes loves him, then there's nothing to worry about. We see another little glimpse of the David we know...deep down, he is optimistic about love and relationships and maybe even marriage. Maddie and Agnes's conversation possibly reveals Maddie has changed her opinions about marriage. She's not afraid of it anymore, but possibly feels as though she missed her chance with David since Annie came to town. Yet, she still assures Agnes that she is doing the right thing and that it's normal to feel anxious at a time like that. What bees said. (And did anyone else gag when David suggested "fooling around" as the first option? )
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 21, 2010 22:16:24 GMT -5
I love when Maddie calls him on his "detachment" in their confrontation, when he says it's "none of his business" what Annie decides about her marriage: "Well, if you really believe that, I have nothing more to say to you." Go, Maddie! I would've kicked him out, too. I agree with you. This more assertive Maddie turned me on!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Sept 21, 2010 22:19:16 GMT -5
What bees said. (And did anyone else gag when David suggested "fooling around" as the first option? ) Ayup.
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:28:07 GMT -5
4. From the Department of Speculation Department (forgive me, but I can't help it with this episode):
(a). Overall, what do you think was the intended tone of this episode: comedic? nostalgic? hopeful? dramatic?It appears a hopeless mishmash of all of these. The comedic bits with the wedding planning, the drama of wrapping up the Annie story line, the hopeful pieces that you were thinking D&M would see how happy Bert and Agnes were and get serious again, and the nostalgic clips piece at the very end (most of the scenes came from Seasons 1-3 if you notice) Agree, gray. This is one of the things that makes me angriest about this ep: the best episodes of ML are a carefully calibrated mixture of all of the above; with "Lunar Eclipse," it's like they threw all of the ingredients into the pot without regard to order or measurement, and just crossed their fingers that it would work. The result of course, is that the comedy falls flat, the moments of pathos are bizarre (MacGillicudy's death? who thought of that one?), and I'm so angry at David that I hardly feel satisfied when he finally mans up and does the right thing. The nostalgic montage serves to remind us what an amazing show ML was and is...up until this finale. (Sorry to sound so negative--I haven't rewatched this ep in a long, long time, and I'm finding myself angry all over again at the wasted opportunity they had!!) As David says, the whole thing is like an "unfunny dream sequence."
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 21, 2010 22:40:46 GMT -5
I'm calling it a night ML friends. Great questions rose and jpen! Goodnight.....
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:42:41 GMT -5
Before I answer the last question, I feel like I have to say something positive about this episode!! So, here I go:
-Allyce rocked in every scene, as usual, from being tipsy thinking of Mel Gibson, to trying on slinky, not-typically-Agnes (um, I assume?) lingerie, to browbeating David and Maddie at the end.
-The guy who played Mark, James Stephens, was perfectly cast and did a great job.
-Liked Jamie's ambition--and finally, one of the Wobblies gets a fairly significant set of lines!! ;D
OK, I'm done. It's back to rantville...
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Post by jpen on Sept 21, 2010 22:53:43 GMT -5
(b). Why do you think the writers decided against Maddie and David getting back together at the end of the episode?
This one really mystifies me. To have "Cy" give voice to the reason why people stopped caring about Moonlighting (not us, of course--nothing could make us stop caring, even 20 years later!!!)...and then to parody that reason, with the last-minute marriage attempt...and then to follow that up with a montage that very clearly communicates, I think, that Maddie and David belong together...the whole sequence is just bizarre, IMHO.
I agree with 1987 and bees that they didn't really close the door on anything, just left them kind of in limbo. But a kiss, a look, a glance even? I don't think it's too much to ask.
Here's a silly question: If the last several minutes of the episode were redone, and Maddie and David had gotten back together on some level, do you think we would still be as passionate about this show...or is part of our desire to "keep the flame burning" the feeling that the candle was blown out too soon? ;D
OK, that's it for me for tonight. See y'all later!
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Post by lin212 on Sept 22, 2010 6:45:00 GMT -5
Hey guys, I lost cable/internet/TV connection last night around 6:30 and it still is not fixed. Just wanted to pop you all a note from work to say that I will be posting as soon as I can. Unfortunately, I can't chat from here.
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Post by Hazel on Sept 22, 2010 8:21:01 GMT -5
Not sure what the rule is (if any) on jumping in on this discussion without having re-watched in its entirety, but having recently scanned through this one for clips and having my heart broken all the same, I've just got a few things to say-- some related to the questions, some more tangential...
1. Fave scene? Maybe a moment of a scene, instead: The way David and Maddie look at each other just before the montage. It's like they suddenly (and by they I mean M/D and B/C) realized that this was gonna be it, and you could see the real sadness in their faces as that registered. It hurts, but at least there's some recognition, at long last, of the all the loss. Following up with the montage is just spelling out everything that got thrown out along the way. The song helps and hurts at the same time, but it was a good choice.
2. Least fave scene: A different part of the same scene: When David and Maddie rush to the priest to get married and do the cartoony sell of their relationship. The "mwah mwah mwahs" felt lousy after everything else we'd suffered through. To have them make even more light of what we all believed in, what we wanted so badly to see, especially at this stage of the game, flat out stunk.
3. Cy: Insult to injury, IMO. Walter Bishop (no, but yes) spelling out what went wrong with David and Maddie is a bitter pill to swallow.
4. David went out on a low note for me, despite any last minute redemption attempts. After the crap that went before and the squandered potential that went before the crap that went before, it was too little, too late, and I hate it. "Fooling around"? Jackass. Why why why did they do that to him?
Anyway, I've said it before, but the ending of this show was bitter, ugly and cruel. A thoroughly disappointing train wreck unbefitting the brilliance and beauty of its best seasons, both in terms of the relationship between Maddie and David and in terms of the big picture of a once great and powerful endeavor fallen from grace. Yeah, it's just a show, but it was a wonderful show that made millions and millions happy every week. To see that destroyed and laid low like it was, taking the remaining loyal audience to the opposite of happy, and not in a good way? Epic fail.
Bitter? Oh, a tad. LOL and smh.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 22, 2010 9:28:47 GMT -5
Here's a silly question: If the last several minutes of the episode were redone, and Maddie and David had gotten back together on some level, do you think we would still be as passionate about this show...or is part of our desire to "keep the flame burning" the feeling that the candle was blown out too soon? ;D
I've often thought about this. We probably wouldn't be here agonizing over the end, but rather scrutinizing some other issue! Lol!
This question though lends to the idea of why we set our vcr's and returned week after week .....despite the endless reruns and the Bert/Agnes eps that we loved/love. They (the writers) were very good at stringing us along, giving, taking away and then giving some more.
It's why we're here now. And it's why we love the show.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 22, 2010 9:38:12 GMT -5
3. Cy: Insult to injury, IMO. Walter Bishop (no, but yes) spelling out what went wrong with David and Maddie is a bitter pill to swallow. Know exactly how you feel, Hazel. Very interesting that Cybill opposed Maddie marrying Walter as she felt it was completely out of character and then they use him to tell us what went wrong. I would have much rather seen the writers who held the picket signs in season 4. They should have faced the masses........
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