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Post by sandra on Aug 30, 2011 3:56:43 GMT -5
The sad thing is, if Maddie had married Sam, their marriage would have been just like her mother and father's marriage: all pretense, gradual love, appearances, order. But if she'd stayed with David, she would have eventually felt suffocated (all those emotions that come with David, constantly dealing with emotions, and putting up with a man who never outgrew adolescence) and she would have run away eventually. First of all, welcome treasmus! I think we've "met" already on youtube  I agree with what you say about what would have happened if Maddie married Sam - although I wouldn't want to judge the marriage of Maddie's parents; we know too little about it, I think, to say whether it was a marriage as a consequence of true love or if love slowly grew as consequence of the marriage (if that's possible, but that's another issue). But I don't think that - would Maddie and David have managed to make it work out in the first place and stay together - it would only have been a short-life relationship; the love between them was way too deep for that. In my opinion it was a once-in-a-lifetime-love - may sound naive and/or old-fashioned; anyway, I believe in that and I think that's what Maddie and Dave had - therefore it could never have worked out with Sam; after a few years, Maddie would have gone numb inside. And I don't think on the long hand Maddie wouldn't have been able to deal with the depth and intensity of her emotions for David - after all, she was a real woman with guts! Had she once overcome her fears of losing control and allowed herself to take the step and start a relationship with David - baby, I'm utterly convinved she'd have stuck with it like glue, and she wouldn't have given up. Last point - your characterization of David as a man never having outgrown adolescence - I'm well-known here for being a notorious David's girl, and of course I don't agree with that. but I think that even of all the Maddie's girls I know (and one of hardest-boiled I ever met happens to be one of my best friends) none would go so far as to say David hasn't outgrown adolescence. Maybe you could explain where you drew this conclusion from? Surely not from his wise-cracking, rugged exterior? That would be a bit too short-sighted, I think. I wouldn't call that not having grown up, I would call that having preserved the child inside you, or in other words, having stayed young at heart. Haven't we seen lots and lots of examples where David has proved his moral and emotional maturity? And one of the earliest stories we know about David - his failed marriage - shows a pretty mature, responsible 18-year-old. JMHO of course. Would really like to read more of your analyses! |
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Aug 30, 2011 4:04:40 GMT -5
Welcome treasmus! Enjoyed reading your post! I do find this very interesting: "I'm inclined to think Maddie would have enjoyed a short-term relationship with David, but in the long run he would have driven her nuts. True, they both enhanced each other and opposites attract and all that jazz, but as a person who identifies with Maddie and shares at least some of her traits, I can tell you that she would have gone crazy if she were to have a longer relationship with David. The sad thing is, if Maddie had married Sam, their marriage would have been just like her mother and father's marriage: all pretense, gradual love, appearances, order. But if she'd stayed with David, she would have eventually felt suffocated (all those emotions that come with David, constantly dealing with emotions, and putting up with a man who never outgrew adolescence) and she would have run away eventually." I'm thinking this way...if Maddie had married Sam, that would have eventually driven her crazy. Yes, she certainly would have gotten her parents approval of Sam, but she would have become bored and suffocated, much like in her dreams with the "Pat Boone" David in "Tracks...". And speaking of approval, she certainly didn't seek Alex and Virginia's approval before or after she married Walter! (Kind of makes me think maybe their approval wasn't so important after all...but I won't go there...Maddie was in her flip out mode... ) But with David, she felt more alive and in love than she ever had with a man. He could drive her crazy and invigorate her at the same time! Running barefoot never felt so good. And that's what scared her. PS...LOVE your avatar and signature! Hi! First of all, thanks for the compliment! Your avatar looks great, too! I love that picture of Cybill and Bruce! Yeah, I agree that Sam would have driven Maddie crazy. Maddie even mocks him to his face when he cooks a meal and she says he'll make somebody a good wife someday. It seems like a compliment, but it's not. It's Maddie's way of saying we're not meant to be. It's just one trivial thing, but there's more of them (his being an astronaut is actually a good thing because he'd be gone a lot and Maddie needs her space from time to time, but he's too perfect), and they matter. I definitely see your point about David introducing Maddie to a whole new area of unpredictability but, and I'm probably in the minority here, I think their relationship was built on a shaky foundation. Theirs was a kind of love-hate relationship, but it's a bit difficult to build anything on hate, and there was a lot of hate between them. There was love, but a lot of hate, too. Sure, it makes for good TV, but it doesn't really work like that. I recently re-watched the series in its entirety and the thing that really struck me about "I'm Curious... Maddie" and "To Heiress Human" was that their relationship was primarily sexual, but there wasn't much of anything else there. Later, in season 5, Maddie tells David he thinks hot sex will fix everything. And I seem to remember Cybill saying something about this rather terrible habit she had of falling in love from the shoulders down. That's what Maddie and David's relationship was primarily about: the innuendo, the double entendre, the "looking down your blouse/dress" jokes, his hand on her behind, etc. Sure, it's important, but with that gone most of season 5 was a nightmare. It was a kind of basic animal attraction that pulled them together, but as soon as Maddie wakes up in David's bed (which consists of a mattress on the floor, mind you), she's miserable. Maddie is a control freak and it's not easy for her to lose some of that control. As soon as she does, she starts grasping at straws. She makes "the pact", she breaks the pact and immediately wants to regain a sense of control by making a new one. Sure, "the pact" is just a smokescreen, but it doesn't change the fact that she's miserable. In "To Heiress Human" as soon as David suggests it's fine with him that they were an affair, Maddie says "You're crazy about me. I'm gonna be under your skin for a long time, buster, and you know it!" If that's not an attempt at regaining control, I don't know what it is. She doesn't want an affair and she keeps telling David that, but he is not willing to commit (and neither is she). She likes furniture. She likes her silk pajamas. She likes her wine or whatever it was that she was drinking before going to bed at her place. She likes eating in nice restaurants. She likes her jazz records. Sure, it's not about furniture or material things, it's about two people loving eachother, but Maddie likes the finer things in life. It's just very un-Maddie to compromise and settle for a man who can't even take her out on a date to a nice place. All of their dates (eg. at the opera), as unpredictable and fun as they were, were a disaster from Maddie's POV. Sure, a laundromat is a nice change of scenery for Maddie and the dance was sweet, but it's not who Maddie is. That's an Annie kind of place. David and Annie would never work out, though, because Annie was basically a female version of David. They were running around like little kids with no care in the world and no sense of responsibility. That's not who Maddie is either. The funny thing about David, and maybe it has to do with pride or maybe he wanted to purposely spite Maddie, is that he was willing to change for a woman who didn't want to change him (Annie) when he bought a new sofa, but he wasn't willing to compromise for a woman who required that of him. David had it easy with Annie because she didn't demand anything of him. With Maddie, he had to put an effort into their relationship, as did she. It's absolutely true that she felt alive with David. But, and I cannot overstress this enough, Maddie is not the kind of person who would take pleasure in running barefoot all the time. For her, once is a nice change. Twice is kind of nice. Three times is pushing it. She's ready to go back to her routine because it gives her a sense of control. Maddie did consider David as a potential partner, but she had very valid reservations about being with him: "Just when you think here's somebody, and maybe, just maybe, I can show him a little piece of my heart... He knocks you down and steps on your aorta!" She did want to bare her heart to him, but he would always do or say something that just drove her crazy and made her not want to bare her heart to him. In season 5 (I think) David tells Maddie that they talked their relationship to the ground, which is a very David thing to say, but Maddie is about talking (when they're in bed together, she wants to talk about what they are to eachother!), so it's kind of insulting if you think about it. A lot of it was David's "rugged exterior" but, generally, David had a way of dismissing Maddie's beliefs (eg. her religious non-belief), or listening to her when it suited him. But then, Maddie was just as hardheaded and she did the same. I don't know, I just don't think they had much of a future together beyond the physical and conversational harakiri, which is just fine. When they were hot, they were sizzling hot. |
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Aug 30, 2011 4:32:59 GMT -5
The sad thing is, if Maddie had married Sam, their marriage would have been just like her mother and father's marriage: all pretense, gradual love, appearances, order. But if she'd stayed with David, she would have eventually felt suffocated (all those emotions that come with David, constantly dealing with emotions, and putting up with a man who never outgrew adolescence) and she would have run away eventually. First of all, welcome treasmus! I think we've "met" already on youtube I agree with what you say about what would have happened if Maddie married Sam - although I wouldn't want to judge the marriage of Maddie's parents; we know too little about it, I think, to say whether it was a marriage as a consequence of true love or if love slowly grew as consequence of the marriage (if that's possible, but that's another issue). Hello! It's entirely possible that we met on youtube. My "analysis" of Maddie's parents' marriage is based on appearances only because appearances are perhaps even more important in the Hayes family than actual truth. So it's just a very basic, shallow analysis rooted in what they appear to be like. I may be wrong but, like you said, we have no way of knowing that. My basic problem with David is that he has to be pressured or talked into acting mature. I suppose you could say he is young at heart, and that's a good thing. He forces Maddie to loosen up a little. Besides, acting mature is not really what makes David David (as evidenced in the episode, whose name escapes me, where Maddie forces David to act like a responsible adult). He is capable of acting mature, but David's moral/emotional compass is very relative (as is Maddie's, for that matter). He seems to act mature in almost every case BUT the ones when Maddie absolutely needs him to lay off the jokes and be an adult. It's like he knows that in THIS and THAT situation he should act like an adult, but for some reason he always blows it. I suppose it's what makes David David. It's a generalization, and I'm open to being proven wrong if you can find some examples. |
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Post by sandra on Aug 30, 2011 6:21:44 GMT -5
Besides, acting mature is not really what makes David David (as evidenced in the episode, whose name escapes me, where Maddie forces David to act like a responsible adult). That one is My Fair David. Really? I can't think of one situation when it was about an issue of morale (and I'm not talking about blowing an appointment) that David made the morally wrong choice. He doesn't seem like a morally weak character to me - on the opposite, he has his moral standards, his clear convictions of what is right and what is wrong (just like Maddie)and he sticks to them (just like Maddie). Maybe you could explain by using an example why you are saying his moral compass was very relative? Well, not sure if thoe following count under acting mature, but I'm quite sure they prova that whenever Maddie really needed him (and sometimes without admitting or even knowing it) he was there for her - just like she was for him, by the way. And what shone through very clearly all the time is IMO that David was always ready to put Maddie's happiness above all, surely above his own. I'm thinking for example of Brother, can you spare a blonde, Money talks, Maddie walks, most highly in Atlas Belched; and excellent example for his support and reliability when push came to shove is of course also Every daughter's father is a virgin. And I don't think we should forget his readiness to stick with Maddie and raise a child that supposedly wasn't his - although that may not count because I'm quite sure that deep, deep down he knew the baby was his. Food for thought, whatdya say? |
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Post by sandra on Aug 30, 2011 6:45:04 GMT -5
Hmmm... it's always good to see different opinions, different points of view, and the discussions on this board are the best to widen one's horizon and discover always new aspects. Treamus, the ones you point out, are surely challenging ones! Maddie and David would surely have had to work hard to make their relationship work, due to their being so different people maybe harder than other people. Of course you can't build anything on hate, of course mere physical attraction is not a base to build a relationship upon. But do you really think there was actual hate between them? Where do you see that? Have I got this right, are you really saying that by the end of season three there was nothing deeper than sex between them? If it really was that way, then you are indeed right - they never had a chance for a future. But I don't believe this - I believe we see many times before - and very early - that they are more, so much more to each other than just sex or looking for a change. And I really think that both of them were able to make compromises if the right thing came along - so far, for David there had been no need to have furniture in his apartment; he didn't actually "live" there, so he was perfectly fine with it how it was. And Maddie - I think it makes her sound a bit superficial to say all those "fine" things in her life were more important to her than to make compromises in life, in love, in and for a serious relationship. I think, in a rack there's place for classic music discs as well as for Ray Charles, I don't think Maddie was that little open-minded. But I could be wrong, of course. |
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Post by iluvdavid on Aug 30, 2011 8:25:11 GMT -5
I think there was more between them than sex. The looks that they exchange in many episodes, especially during season 3 look like love to me. They are also concerned about each other and try to take care of each other in many different ways. Sex and physical attraction may have been a big part of their relationship but if Maddie wasn't so afraid and or confused maybe the relationship could have grown and flourished. It seems that in all the episodes leading up to Blonde on Blonde Maddie was ready and eager to be with David...I don't know. Opposites can complement each other....I think David would have driven me crazy in the first 2 seasons but by season 3 he seems to have matured in many ways...just my opinion...
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Aug 30, 2011 9:50:41 GMT -5
Besides, acting mature is not really what makes David David (as evidenced in the episode, whose name escapes me, where Maddie forces David to act like a responsible adult). That one is My Fair David. Really? I can't think of one situation when it was about an issue of morale (and I'm not talking about blowing an appointment) that David made the morally wrong choice. He doesn't seem like a morally weak character to me - on the opposite, he has his moral standards, his clear convictions of what is right and what is wrong (just like Maddie)and he sticks to them (just like Maddie). Maybe you could explain by using an example why you are saying his moral compass was very relative? For instance, in "Blonde on Blonde." I know it's because David feels strongly about Maddie and also because he's concerned about her safety, but why is it okay for David to sleep around, but it isn't for Maddie when she finally goes out? Why does he feel it's necessary for him to follow her (not to mention to involve Bert in an issue that is not company business) when getting laid by a random stranger is clearly what she wants to do in her own free time?! It's okay for him to hang from her door, hungover, but it's not okay for Maddie to have fun the one time she allows herself to go out? Also, this is more of a "don't know what you have until it's gone" kinda thing, but I think they butt into eachother's personal lives only when they feel threatened (when a third party enters). Otherwise, they are perfectly okay with keeping eachother at an arm's length. I was thinking of the time when David shows up at Maddie and Sam's dinner, which is rude in a desperate sort of way. Maddie does that, too, like when she waits for David in his bed and Annie sees them and storms out and David goes after Annie. Sure, Sam and Annie were plot devices meant to bring Maddie and David together, and part of the reason why Maddie and Sam and David and Annie couldn't last has to with the fact that by entering into those relationships Maddie and David were trying to get some sort of reaction from the other person, but they seem to reach out when it's almost too late. You're right, he was there for her and he did have her back a lot of the time, I'm not denying it, but many times when he'd try to help Maddie something would be off. Eg. he did give her $30 000, but it was stolen money; in another instance, I seem to remember him going with her to one of her relatives' party or something to that effect, but only after making a huge fuss about it. Those are marginal things, and they do more to convince one that he kind of put himself on the line for her, but I can't think of anything more specific right now. I'll get back to you on this when I re-watch some crucial episodes. Or perhaps someone else can help me out with this and refresh my memory? Of course you can't build anything on hate, of course mere physical attraction is not a base to build a relationship upon. But do you really think there was actual hate between them? Where do you see that? Have I got this right, are you really saying that by the end of season three there was nothing deeper than sex between them? If it really was that way, then you are indeed right - they never had a chance for a future. But I don't believe this - I believe we see many times before - and very early - that they are more, so much more to each other than just sex or looking for a change. I don't know if it's necessarily hate, but by the fifth season Maddie and David's relationship consists mainly in him costing her (if I'm not mistaken) $125 an hour in shrink bills. That's a lot of issues to work through - issues which probably don't have much to do with love. Maddie makes this comment to her shrink, which is very revealing and which she makes on more than one occasion, that sometimes she still finds herself fascinated by the relationship between David's shoulders and hips. This goes back to what I said earlier about Maddie (and Cybill) falling in love with certain parts of the male anatomy and being disappointed down the road that the relationship didn't work out. And at one point when they are in the car together David gets his way by referring to what? Sex of course (the "spot behind your neck" conversation). It's a pattern with them. Sure, but let's not forget that she had tons of money until her accountant fled. She was probably used to that kind of lifestyle. And why shouldn't she like it? Sure, it makes her a bit superficial, but those were the yuppie years. David's apartment, furniture (for starters), those things may not matter to David, but they matter to Maddie. Furniture is not really the problem per se (it's more of a symbol), but I remember Maddie accusing David of spending all of his money on things that aren't permanent (which kind of mirrors her fear of what he will be like in a permanent commitment). She wants someone financially independent (David sort of is that), but also someone who will take her someplace nice, as opposed to taking her to the nearest hotdog stand because he blew all his money the night before. |
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Post by sandra on Aug 30, 2011 10:16:33 GMT -5
Forgive me, but when ever did David sleep around?! I don't see him ever being that kinda guy, sorry. Also, he never said that it was okay for a man to sleep around and for a woman it wasn't. In fact, he never said it was okay to sleep around. And of course he didn't want that for Maddie because he loved her. I agree with you, his biggest mistake was that he didn't just make his fellings understood by her. That was bound to cause a lot of trouble, and it would have simplified everything if he did express his feelings more openly - same as for Maddie btw. But that's not a question of a weak morale IMO, only of insecurity. The party at Maddie's relatives - you're referring to "Funeral for doornail" where she asks him to accompany her to a wedding of one of her cousins in Chicago. You should watch the episode then you'll see that it's the absolute opposite from making a fuss. She says to David "I need a favor", and he replies, without asking or thinking, "Done." When she explains what the favor would be, that she needs to go to a family wedding and was wondering if he would take her he replies in an earnest voice "I'd be delighted." Big mistake. Maddie starts the whole discussion by disapproving of him being delighted and so on and sighs wouldn't it be great if for such occasions it were possible to have a guy that you could put away in a box afterward "like a tux" - , until he says "well then let's consider this strictly business" and asks her to pay him for it. And yes, there he delights in teasing her. But that, I daresay, was her own fault, because she couldn't let it be nice this time. Oh, and if by "stolen money" you're referring to Brother, can you spare a blonde? - when David swallowed his pride and borrowed the money from his brother he didn't know that it was stolen money, of course. I'm open minded too, but you need to come up with a few better examples I'm already very curious about it and eager to discuss! |
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Aug 30, 2011 11:09:30 GMT -5
Forgive me, but when ever did David sleep around?! I don't see him ever being that kinda guy, sorry. Also, he never said that it was okay for a man to sleep around and for a woman it wasn't. In fact, he never said it was okay to sleep around. And of course he didn't want that for Maddie because he loved her. This is kind of tricky because on the one hand David is the kind of person who likes to have fun, dance on an office desk, go out and get drunk, or go to Mexico and do who knows what with who knows who. So something is implied, but it's never specifically said. I doubt he goes to Mexico just to buy sombreros (but we have no way of knowing for sure). Which is absolutely fine when it's not on company time. And should also be fine when Maddie does it, especially if David doesn't outright ask her out or if she doesn't feel like doing it with him. Then again, David has many a chance to sleep around (eg. the woman at the bar whose client talks in his sleep), but he turns them down on account of Maddie. Still, he's a red-blooded male so it's just a bit difficult for me to buy this no-sleeping around scenario. But anyway, in "Blonde on Blonde", David just doesn't want to listen to Maddie when she tells him she wants to go out and be reckless and bad but also wonderful. Of course he doesn't want to listen because her plans don't involve him, but that does not justify his behavior. She specifically tells him she'd like to sort out whatever is bothering her by herself. It's the one time he actually makes an effort to listen to her, but it's the wrong time, unfortunately for David. Maddie would've been better off not confiding in David because she knew what she had to say would hurt him (he said she could talk to him as a friend, she told him it wasn't a thing friends in their situation discussed, so it's not like she didn't warn him), but he insisted, so he got what he bargained for and more. And then he tried to stop her, which is not something a friend does. He means well, but it's still an interference with something he has no business interfering with. Yes, that's the episode. Now I remember what ticked me off about David's behavior. Not to be a Maddie apologist because she does have a difficult personality, but Maddie considers this a chore and he is so fine with going. That's why it pisses her off. It's supposed to be a chore. But it really doesn't matter. I was just trying to think of something (anything) and that's not it. I guess I'll need to re-watch a few episodes and come back then. I am enjoying our discussion, though, and thanks for refreshing my memory because when I was re-watching "Moonlighting", I was also re-watching "Seinfeld", and "Cybill" (one episode of "Moonlighting", then one of "Seinfeld", one of "Cybill", and so on) so it all gets jumbled up in my mind. |
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Post by sandra on Aug 30, 2011 11:21:18 GMT -5
OK I'd be glad to continue as soon as you have rewatched - would make more sense then, I guess.  |
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Post by rose35 on Aug 30, 2011 11:47:58 GMT -5
OK I'd be glad to continue as soon as you have rewatched - would make more sense then, I guess. Its such great fun to have discussions here on the board about our fave tv show & fave couple thats why we are here but i agree with Sandra watch the shows again & then come back to discuss! So we are all on the same page! |
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Post by iluvdavid on Aug 30, 2011 13:55:37 GMT -5
Maddie is upset when David says that he would be delighted to accompany her to a family gathering ...yet by Season 3 Maddie is delighted herself, it seems, when David asks her to go to his father's party and wedding in the 'Son Also Rises". In "Big Man on Mulberry Street" , Maddie flies across the country to accompany David to a funeral. Just adding my two sense...
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Post by diane on Aug 30, 2011 21:34:59 GMT -5
Oh my.....this thread has been a little active today, huh? There is certainly much to discuss, and no shortage of opinions here.....all good things. But we have strayed far off the topic of this thread, and I really need to take some time to figure out exactly where some of these posts should go and move them there. So I am asking that there be no additional posts to this thread until I do that. But I do want to continue to promote the kind of good and respectful dialogue that makes this such a great place to be. I am going to suggest that we open a new thread......and give us the opportunity to get to know each other better, particularly the newbies. That thread can be found right here: moonlighting.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Member&thread=1229If those of you have been around for a while would let the newer people post on this thread first, and then jump in with your own response to the question, hopefully we can generate some good dialogue and get to know each other better. Thank you. I |
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witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
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Post by witness on Dec 28, 2011 5:40:17 GMT -5
Well folks, it doesn't look good. My viewing partner is still not won over. Our most recent appointment was with "Every Daughter's Father is a Virgin." I thought for sure that would begin to thaw my pal's heart. Not so much. Reading over your responses again tells me that if you don't "get" Maddie from square one, you ain't gettin' her. Could watching ML when it first aired vs now, on DVD, 25+ years later be a factor? Anybody know someone who watched the series for the first time when it came out on DVD?
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Post by sandra on Dec 28, 2011 9:22:53 GMT -5
Oh my, I think this is indeed a hopeless case... there were so many occasions before "Every daughter's..." to see Maddie's vulnerabilty, her golden heart, even if you didn't fall for her from day one: think of "Lady in the iron mask", "Money talks, Maddie walks" or "My fair David" - and, let's face it: if your viewing pal didn't fall hook, line and sinker for Maddie in "Atlas belched", she never will.
Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with knowing ML from the 80s or discovering it only on DVDs.
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