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Post by diane on Sept 8, 2011 10:52:39 GMT -5
Really nice analysis of the end of Lunar Eclipse, Treasmus. I know I will look at it carefully the next time I watch.
The emotional upsetment caused by that particular episode always makes it hard for people to be objective about it. As you say, that ending and the montage are a pretty good wrap up -- if you could skip the first 35 minutes of the episode.
So I guess, if things had to end, it's as good as any....we all just didn't want it to end. Good thing we have our imaginations, and our dreams....and fanfiction, of course, to find a happy ending.
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Post by diane on Sept 8, 2011 11:00:15 GMT -5
I LOVE David when towards the end of "Every Daughter's....." Maddie returns to the office clearly upset, and David tells Agnes to send all the calls his way.
I LOVE Maddie when she and Agnes share the baby under the Christmas Tree.
I DON'T LIKE David when he tosses the car keys at Bert at the condo in Rodondo.
I DON'T LIKE Maddie when she pulls rank on David in "Witness" ---"And neither are you!!"
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 9, 2011 3:47:42 GMT -5
Really nice analysis of the end of Lunar Eclipse, Treasmus. I know I will look at it carefully the next time I watch. The emotional upsetment caused by that particular episode always makes it hard for people to be objective about it. As you say, that ending and the montage are a pretty good wrap up -- if you could skip the first 35 minutes of the episode. So I guess, if things had to end, it's as good as any....we all just didn't want it to end. Good thing we have our imaginations, and our dreams....and fanfiction, of course, to find a happy ending. In defense of the first 35 minutes, I guess they're a great set up for the last five minutes or so. They first 35 minutes really make the ending that much more satisfying because of how abruptly the tone of the episode changes from total chaos and desperation (in the first 35 minutes) to something else entirely (that starts with the altar scene and carries on until the very end). I think the contrast in tone makes you (or at least me) appreciate the ending that much more. I'm a huge fan of the unspectacular "not with a bang, but with a whimper" endings of the '70s New Hollywood movies, and for me the ending is just like that. New Hollywood endings don't end "happily", or with a big explosion, or with a wedding; they don't drill a hole in the viewer's stomach, they rather make you think "Huh? That's it?" Which is why I love the fact that Agnes and Herbert's spectacular, over-the-top wedding is contrasted with a scene that is very quiet and understated: in the altar scene Maddie and David just sit there alone, Maddie grabs David's hand and makes her very short speech, David listens, the clip show begins, and that's that. I think that's even more powerful. New Hollywood endings also leave the viewer with a sense of non-finality. They're unfinished stories. For instance, "Five Easy Pieces" has one of my favourite endings: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl0A4q7yjuA . It ends with a scene that doesn't really wrap things up. It makes it evident that the story will continue in some capacity. I think the series ends on a similar note. I wouldn't be satisfied with a "Hollywood" ending for those two anyway. It wouldn't feel like them. I'm actually very happy with the way things ended because for me the ending implies that they could be together again, perhaps (maybe at first) in some other context than lovers. I don't think the ending implies that they will go their separate ways and never see eachother at all. I think Maddie's words really bring out the message. The way I see it, they imply that Maddie and David have a history and that they don't live in a vacuum. They know where the other one lives. They have eachother's phone numbers. So it all boils down to them deciding if and in what context they want to see eachother after the agency closes down. If they do, great. If they don't, they have the memories. It could go either way. This is why I like it how the ending, and the scene at the altar that sets it up, leaves the viewer with a sense of non-finality*. I like it how the clip montage goes to a black screen, leaving the viewer with the following message: "Blue Moon Investigations ceased operations on May 14th, 1989. The Anselmo case was never solved... and remains a mystery to this day." I know the Anselmo case is a gag that recurs throughout season 5, but it's also kind of like: one chapter is closed (Blue Moon Investigations ceased to exist), but one is left unfinished (Maddie and Dave). Once again, it's up to Maddie and David if and in what context they want to see eachother. I know Maddie once said that she didn't like going back (that we have eyes in the front of our head for a reason), but marriage is not the only option of going forward. I actually can't imagine a better ending for those two. *Sure, it's evident in the way the episode develops (there's a wedding, a desperate attempt at a wedding, etc.) that this is the end. You're prepared for it because David says at one point that "in six minutes we will cease to exist as television characters", they take the set decoration away, Maddie and David leave the studio, the TV producer tells them it's over for them, so there's a sense of finality looming everywhere, but I think the scene with them sitting at the altar after the priest leaves really hits you because the tone is different. The tone changes. The episode up until that moment is an ode to desperation, but in the altar scene when they're alone, just the two of them with no one around, the mood is not one of desperation or finality (re: Maddie's speech). I think it implies that, if left to their own devices and with no outside influence, they could figure it out and have some sort of a future. I love the altar scene because it's so short and unspectacular. And then there's the montage, and the fade to black leaves things unfinished. Up until the altar scene, there isn't even a chance for Maddie and David. The altar scene really turns things around and the series ends on that note. They have a 50/50 shot. I may be way off in my analysis, but I really love the ending. I LOVE Maddie when she hysterically runs from the Murray's garage stolen car with her big purse protecting her head from the "bomb". Panicky Maddie is adorable. I totally forgot about this scene. Adorable, indeed. By the way, is that a parody of all those scenes in action movies where the characters casually talk about the possibility of a bomb being hidden in the trunk of their car, and then for some reason they immediately get out of the car and start running as if there really was a bomb (which there always is), escaping the inevitable explosion by a hair? I love both Maddie and David in this scene in "Every Daughter's Father is a Virgin": David: "You're still welcome." Maddie: "You're still thanked." I also love Maddie in "Every Daughter's Father Is a Virgin" when she hits her father with her purse one last time for emphasis. She keeps hitting him, then she stops, and then she hits him one last time for emphasis. It's so cute because that last punch comes out of nowhere.
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Post by diane on Sept 9, 2011 9:03:04 GMT -5
I don't know about an ode to desperation....but I know the first 35 minutes made me desperate. In my opinion, to use a David Addison quote, it's ..."all a load of crap." You can analyze it till you're blue in the face, but it's terrible, and a horrible, disjointed way to end a classic show.
I agree with you on the ending, but there is no way I can condone the tripe that the rest of the episode is.
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Post by diane on Sept 9, 2011 10:03:51 GMT -5
I also love Maddie in "Every Daughter's Father Is a Virgin" when she hits her father with her purse one last time for emphasis. She keeps hitting him, then she stops, and then she hits him one last time for emphasis. It's so cute because that last punch comes out of nowhere. I'm really sorry, but I just can't get this one go. I find it hard to reconcile the word "cute" with anything that goes on in that scene. I find it disturbing and violent. It is like a punch in my stomach everytime I watch it. It is certainly effective in conveying Maddie's anger, but surely it is not an approach I would feel comfortable approving of.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 9, 2011 16:59:03 GMT -5
I agree with treasmus and 1987. I've always thought the last moments of Lunar Eclipse was full of hope for Maddie and David. I think it's the one thing they did right with the end of the show. It's too bad about the two episodes that came before Lunar Eclipse, as there could have been so much more resolved, but I'll take what they gave...a vision of Maddie and David together.
My heart breaks for Maddie and her mother during the entire episode "Every Father's..." And that's a tribute to Cybill turning in a terrific performance. The purse pelting still brings tears to my eyes today. I've never found it funny or cute, either.
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Post by rose35 on Sept 9, 2011 19:03:42 GMT -5
I also love Maddie in "Every Daughter's Father Is a Virgin" when she hits her father with her purse one last time for emphasis. She keeps hitting him, then she stops, and then she hits him one last time for emphasis. It's so cute because that last punch comes out of nowhere. I'm really sorry, but I just can't get this one go. I find it hard to reconcile the word "cute" with anything that goes on in that scene. I find it disturbing and violent. It is like a punch in my stomach everytime I watch it. It is certainly effective in conveying Maddie's anger, but surely it is not an approach I would feel comfortable approving of. I so agree that theres Nothing cute about it all ! It's sad,heartbreaking ,moving & Cybills performance is amazing! Maddie felt she like had nothing else do to in that moment & thats how she reacted & it broke her fathers heart i'm sure. I can't imagine doing this to my own father. Maddie felt horrible after. JMO of course
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Post by rose35 on Sept 9, 2011 19:07:48 GMT -5
I agree with treasmus and 1987. I've always thought the last moments of Lunar Eclipse was full of hope for Maddie and David. I think it's the one thing they did right with the end of the show. It's too bad about the two episodes that came before Lunar Eclipse, as there could have been so much more resolved, but I'll take what they gave...a vision of Maddie and David together. My heart breaks for Maddie and her mother during the entire episode "Every Father's..." And that's a tribute to Cybill turning in a terrific performance. The purse pelting still brings tears to my eyes today. I've never found it funny or cute, either. Unfortunately i dont agree. I have felt the same way about this episode since 1989. It was heartbreaking then & still is for me. Yes i love the scenes at the end but thats all it was to me was replay of lots of amazing scenes & yes Ray CHarles song was beautiful too . If they had added 1 simple line to the show to show us fans hope maybe i could have felt better about it but i will never say it was a good series ender. But this is JMHO
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 10, 2011 2:48:19 GMT -5
I also love Maddie in "Every Daughter's Father Is a Virgin" when she hits her father with her purse one last time for emphasis. She keeps hitting him, then she stops, and then she hits him one last time for emphasis. It's so cute because that last punch comes out of nowhere. I'm really sorry, but I just can't get this one go. I find it hard to reconcile the word "cute" with anything that goes on in that scene. I find it disturbing and violent. It is like a punch in my stomach everytime I watch it. It is certainly effective in conveying Maddie's anger, but surely it is not an approach I would feel comfortable approving of. Oh, I agree, it's a sad moment, and I agree with beesnbears and rose35 that it's heartbreaking, but I still can't help but laugh every time I see the part where she hits him one last time. I gave my reason for why it makes me laugh and I stand by it. It's also consistent with Maddie's character. She does have a way of relieving stress by means of physical violence (pushing David, hitting David, throwing things at David, smashing windows with things, slamming doors, etc.), which I guess is an indicator of utter helplessness.
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snappysara
2nd Level
Spit and slide under
Posts: 283
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Post by snappysara on Sept 10, 2011 7:50:53 GMT -5
I love Maddie every time she slams a door I love David when Maddie shouts 'GET IN HERE' and he says 'she's nuts about me' to Agnes I don't love Maddie when she forgets to take the present to Aunt Ruth because she is too busy I don't love David when he tells Maddie not to tell her mother about her father cheating on her.
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Post by beesnbears on Sept 10, 2011 8:36:36 GMT -5
"She does have a way of relieving stress by means of physical violence (pushing David, hitting David, throwing things at David, smashing windows with things, slamming doors, etc.), which I guess is an indicator of utter helplessness.". treasmus
Maddie is far from utter helplessness. She may react and show her emotions freely, but she is clearly not helpless. She made a lucrative career from modeling, had her money stolen from her, did something about it and then revamped a sinking ship in Blue Moon without knowing anything about being a detective or running a private business.
Doesn't sound helpless to me.
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Sept 10, 2011 8:40:20 GMT -5
I love Maddie when her slap turns to a kiss in 'I am Curious...' ;-) I love David when he's wearing just a towel on his hips in 'To Heiress..' I hate Maddie when she tells the staff they have to work Christmas in 'It's a Wonderful Job' I hate David when he takes Annie out after Maddie falls asleep in 'When Girls Collide'
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Post by sandra on Sept 10, 2011 9:00:01 GMT -5
"She does have a way of relieving stress by means of physical violence (pushing David, hitting David, throwing things at David, smashing windows with things, slamming doors, etc.), which I guess is an indicator of utter helplessness.". treasmus Maddie is far from utter helplessness. She may react and show her emotions freely, but she is clearly not helpless. She made a lucrative career from modeling, had her money stolen from her, did something about it and then revamped a sinking ship in Blue Moon without knowing anything about being a detective or running a private business. Doesn't sound helpless to me. Agree, bees - I think it's more a pattern of losing her temper when her anger stresses her too much; a very interesting juxtaposition to her deeply rooted urge of controlling everything, her own feelings included.
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treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
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Post by treasmus on Sept 10, 2011 9:05:35 GMT -5
"She does have a way of relieving stress by means of physical violence (pushing David, hitting David, throwing things at David, smashing windows with things, slamming doors, etc.), which I guess is an indicator of utter helplessness.". treasmus Maddie is far from utter helplessness. She may react and show her emotions freely, but she is clearly not helpless. She made a lucrative career from modeling, had her money stolen from her, did something about it and then revamped a sinking ship in Blue Moon without knowing anything about being a detective or running a private business. Doesn't sound helpless to me. I agree that she is a strong and capable woman, and I don't think that's being disputed here. But I think she is helpless in "Every Daughter's Father Is a Virgin" because she can't tell her mother about her father's infidelity and it's driving her crazy, and then once her father starts talking about her mother acting strange, she just snaps. There's nothing else she can or could do to punish him. Sounds like helplessness. And for some reason her hitting him with her purse is like a cleansing act for her. Only then can she reconcile with him. Sure, she goes to him because her mother asks her to, but that's only her initial motivation. It's like regeneration through violence a la Maddie Hayes. It may not be that deep, maybe she just has a short fuse, it's just a thought. With David, she slams the doors, pushes him, and throws stuff at him because he pushes her buttons on purpose and knows he can get away with it, which drives her crazy because there's nothing she can do about it. Sounds like helplessness to me, but I don't want to argue. Like I said, Maddie does have a way of relieving stress through violence and I still think helplessness has something to do with it. Agree, bees - I think it's more a pattern of losing her temper when her anger stresses her too much; a very interesting juxtaposition to her deeply rooted urge of controlling everything, her own feelings included. In a way, helplessness is about the loss/lack of control. EDIT: Oh yeah, the scenes. I hate the scene in "When Girls Collide" where David and Annie are making fun of Maddie's tidiness and orderliness. It's like really? You guys do this the minute Maddie goes upstairs? Just because you don't have magazines lined up in a straight line at your house (whether it's because you don't have a coffee table to put magazines on or because you don't like having magazines lined up in a straight line) and just because you like mess doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy having "all her magazines always lined up on the coffee table in a straight line" or having her "draperies match the couch." Annie is a sneaky, backstabbing individual. To think Maddie was so happy to "let her hair down" with Annie during their dinner. But David is no better in this scene. He happily goes along with everything Annie says. What can I say, at least Maddie knows she's "miss straight as arrow." David and Annie make it sound like an insult (which it shouldn't be). And at least Maddie makes an effort to stop beating David up about being so different from her. I like the scene in the restaurant in "When Girls Collide" where Maddie and David are dancing and Maddie looks at the couple in the booth and says they caught her attention because they look "civilized." Clearly, she wants something like that for herself.
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snappysara
2nd Level
Spit and slide under
Posts: 283
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Post by snappysara on Sept 10, 2011 11:20:35 GMT -5
Oooooooh some good ones Blue Moon. I love her too when her slap turns to a kiss and I love David even more!!! I love Maddie when she looks so beautiful leaning out of the window trying to talk her former friend out of jumping in Money Talks Maddie Walks I love David when he puts on a silly dress for her in The Lady in the Iron Mask I don't like Maddie when she tells David not to call her in Chicago I don't like David when he follows the wrong woman in Blonde on Blonde. Ttsskk! "Call yourself a detective" I love the first three series to bits I don't love the ending SNAP
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