|
Post by beesnbears on Sept 10, 2011 12:19:08 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, treasmus. Though, I still have trouble using the phrase "utterly helpless" and Madolyn Hayes in the same sentence. But, that's just me!
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Sept 10, 2011 15:18:43 GMT -5
I like the scene in the restaurant in "When Girls Collide" where Maddie and David are dancing and Maddie looks at the couple in the booth and says they caught her attention because they look "civilized." Clearly, she wants something like that for herself. Really? But if she's so much after that being "civilized" with someone, then why on earth did she let go of the best thing that ever happened to her when she had the chance to get hold of it? In fact, she let go of the chance to have a civilzed relationship even twice (speaking of Walter). Doesn't look to me like she's craving that kind of thing.
|
|
|
Post by iluvdavid on Sept 10, 2011 15:57:26 GMT -5
Civilized?? What a horrible way to describe a relationship between a couple? I don't remember that line...but I don't love Maddie if she said that!
|
|
treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
|
Post by treasmus on Sept 11, 2011 2:36:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, treasmus. Though, I still have trouble using the phrase "utterly helpless" and Madolyn Hayes in the same sentence. But, that's just me! No problem. I re-read my comment and I can see why you thought that's what I meant. Maybe "utterly" isn't the right word. Maybe rather "helpless at that particular moment". I like the scene in the restaurant in "When Girls Collide" where Maddie and David are dancing and Maddie looks at the couple in the booth and says they caught her attention because they look "civilized." Clearly, she wants something like that for herself. Really? But if she's so much after that being "civilized" with someone, then why on earth did she let go of the best thing that ever happened to her when she had the chance to get hold of it? In fact, she let go of the chance to have a civilzed relationship even twice (speaking of Walter). Doesn't look to me like she's craving that kind of thing. Because, as she said, and as we all know, there was this bad habit she had; this "toxic" "relationship" that wasn't really a relationship, but was nevertheless all-consuming. But, generally, she did tend to gravitate towards a relationship like that: the older man in the pilot, her date in "Symphony in Knocked Flat", Sam, Walter Bishop, the bodyguard dude in the episode where she witnesses a murder in the parking garage. It's just too bad they're all schmucks. Agnes may have a point in "Eine Kleine Nacht Murder" when she says "Miss Hayes isn't the kind of woman who can fall in love with a mere mortal."
|
|
|
Post by diane on Sept 11, 2011 2:37:21 GMT -5
First, you all know that I hate WGC with a white hot passion, with every fiber of my being, but if there is a scene in it that had the potential to develop, it is this one.
I think you have got to watch it carefully to see what I mean. When Maddie uses the word "civilized", I don't think it's a bad thing.....in fact, it is probably meaning less chaotic, less frenzied, more ordered -- all things we would expect from our knowledge of her. She thinks "civilized" is what she want and needs -- in my opinion, the opposite is true. But she is trying with that statement to David to show what she sees as what she really wants. (Crazy woman!!)
This scene is a conglomeration of open ended sentences, missed signals, and misinterpretations.......an honest word, a longing gaze......and Annie might have been history before it started.
|
|
|
Post by diane on Sept 11, 2011 2:45:52 GMT -5
Sigh......the "mere mortal" line. I have spent years being angry about that line.
I try very hard to be objective and not gossipy, and to avoid mixing the reality of the actors with the TV show, but that line is one that has always bothered me.
I have always felt it was a slap at Cybill...and what made it worse is that they tried to nicen it up and bury it in Agnes's dialogue, so it would not appear to be a mean thing coming from sweet Agnes.
Maybe it is my personal thing.....but I think that it is just not a compliment, either about the character or the actress.
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Sept 11, 2011 3:12:22 GMT -5
I see what you mean, treasmus, but your reply only underlines my point, I think. More and more missed occasions to get that "civilized" kind of relationship. Most likely she thinks that such a kind of relationship is desirable because it is bound to give you a certain piece of mind, a sense of security, predictability and thus control. But if it was that what she really, really wanted and needed - then, I think, it would have been easy for her to obtain it after all these years; many times. The reason why she didn't choose that kind of relationship at the end of the day is, only IMO of course, that Maddie Hayes - like everybody else - deep deep down beneath all the layers of her complex and complicated personality and beyond all the patterns of reasoning and weighing pros and cons, just longs for happiness and true love, nothing more and nothing less.
|
|
treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
|
Post by treasmus on Sept 11, 2011 3:17:39 GMT -5
First, you all know that I hate WGC with a white hot passion, with every fiber of my being, but if there is a scene in it that had the potential to develop, it is this one. I think you have got to watch it carefully to see what I mean. When Maddie uses the word "civilized", I don't think it's a bad thing.....in fact, it is probably meaning less chaotic, less frenzied, more ordered -- all things we would expect from our knowledge of her. She thinks "civilized" is what she want and needs -- in my opinion, the opposite is true. But she is trying with that statement to David to show what she sees as what she really wants. (Crazy woman!!) This scene is a conglomeration of open ended sentences, missed signals, and misinterpretations.......an honest word, a longing gaze......and Annie might have been history before it started. That's exactly how I interpret it. You're right, even with the way things are in that episode, this could have been a start of something. I think I already said something about this in some other topic so I'll just mention it briefly: David does seem to take Maddie's hint because he does exactly what Maddie would want him to (he buys a sofa) but, sadly, he does it for a woman who couldn't care less if they slept in a cardboard box and who laughs at his stupid jokes like a 15-year-old schoolgirl, where Maddie would just roll her eyes at him. I guess David felt like with Annie he could unwind. With Maddie he always had to be on his best behavior and try to live up to her high expectations. Sigh......the "mere mortal" line. I have spent years being angry about that line. I try very hard to be objective and not gossipy, and to avoid mixing the reality of the actors with the TV show, but that line is one that has always bothered me. I have always felt it was a slap at Cybill...and what made it worse is that they tried to nicen it up and bury it in Agnes's dialogue, so it would not appear to be a mean thing coming from sweet Agnes. Maybe it is my personal thing.....but I think that it is just not a compliment, either about the character or the actress. I personally like that line. I didn't think of it as a slap at Cybill at all. Perhaps it is, but I think it accurately describes Maddie. It may not sound like a compliment to most people but, knowing what we know about Maddie, she would definitely take it as a compliment and pride herself on it. I take it to mean: Maddie has unbelievably high standards, which she does. I guess you could take it to mean: she's never satisfied/she's so picky/she thinks she deserves better than that/no one can live up to her ideals but, frankly, I think that's still a compliment for Maddie.
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Sept 11, 2011 4:34:00 GMT -5
Treasmus,
maybe you could clarify something - I'm a bit puzzled now, but maybe it's just me.
First, you said that a "civilized" relationship it just what Maddie wants. In Diane's opinion (please correct me if I got you wrong, Diane) Maddie just thinks that this is what she wants and needs whereas the opposite is true. And in your last reply to Diane's post you said that was just how you interpreted it. Sounds a bit of a contradiction to me, but I may have missed a point?
Oh, one thing about David - you're right, it was hard for him to live up to Maddie's expectations; she was a constant challenge to him to bring out the best in him, maybe even to become a better person in certain ways (just as he was for her). But I don't think he ever tried to be someone else or to change his behavior to appear in a better light for her. I don't think David ever put up a mask for Maddie - that's just not his nature because I think he is a deeply honest person; he always stayed true to himself.
|
|
|
Post by diane on Sept 11, 2011 8:08:14 GMT -5
First, you all know that I hate WGC with a white hot passion, with every fiber of my being, but if there is a scene in it that had the potential to develop, it is this one. I think you have got to watch it carefully to see what I mean. When Maddie uses the word "civilized", I don't think it's a bad thing.....in fact, it is probably meaning less chaotic, less frenzied, more ordered -- all things we would expect from our knowledge of her. She thinks "civilized" is what she want and needs -- in my opinion, the opposite is true. But she is trying with that statement to David to show what she sees as what she really wants. (Crazy woman!!) This scene is a conglomeration of open ended sentences, missed signals, and misinterpretations.......an honest word, a longing gaze......and Annie might have been history before it started. That's exactly how I interpret it. You're right, even with the way things are in that episode, this could have been a start of something. I think I already said something about this in some other topic so I'll just mention it briefly: David does seem to take Maddie's hint because he does exactly what Maddie would want him to (he buys a sofa) but, sadly, he does it for a woman who couldn't care less if they slept in a cardboard box and who laughs at his stupid jokes like a 15-year-old schoolgirl, where Maddie would just roll her eyes at him. I guess David felt like with Annie he could unwind. With Maddie he always had to be on his best behavior and try to live up to her high expectations. No, given what you are saying, I don't think you interpret it the way I do. As Sandra inferred, I think that is what Maddie was confused into thinking she wanted. It has nothing to do with sofas, or laughing at jokes.....it has to do with knowing yourself. You think Maddie was spot on as to what she herself wanted and needed, while I think she was, at this point, delusional. So much can be merely attributed to bad writing, but I can't use that excuse to make Maddie flat and one dimensional -- she is so much more interesting and intriguing, and I think the conflict within her needs to be acknowledged.
|
|
snappysara
2nd Level
Spit and slide under
Posts: 283
|
Post by snappysara on Sept 11, 2011 14:52:43 GMT -5
Come on pals - some more loves and don't loves please.......
I LOVE DAVID when Sam puts him in the car and he gives a little hiccup I LOVE MADDIE when she she asks David 'What are we going to do?' I DONT LOVE DAVID when he tells Maddie she doesn't listen in 'In God we strongly suspect' I DONT LOVE MADDIE when she leaves him in Buenos Aires
|
|
treasmus
1st Level
Maddie Hayes
Posts: 41
|
Post by treasmus on Sept 12, 2011 2:02:55 GMT -5
Treasmus, maybe you could clarify something - I'm a bit puzzled now, but maybe it's just me. First, you said that a "civilized" relationship it just what Maddie wants. In Diane's opinion (please correct me if I got you wrong, Diane) Maddie just thinks that this is what she wants and needs whereas the opposite is true. And in your last reply to Diane's post you said that was just how you interpreted it. Sounds a bit of a contradiction to me, but I may have missed a point? Oh, one thing about David - you're right, it was hard for him to live up to Maddie's expectations; she was a constant challenge to him to bring out the best in him, maybe even to become a better person in certain ways (just as he was for her). But I don't think he ever tried to be someone else or to change his behavior to appear in a better light for her. I don't think David ever put up a mask for Maddie - that's just not his nature because I think he is a deeply honest person; he always stayed true to himself. I was replying to the part in bold. The part in bold is what I meant by "interpret it." 'It' is the part in bold. I don't think Maddie is deceiving herself into thinking a civilized relationship is what she wants, but I agree that by "civilized" Maddie means "less chaotic, less frenzied, more ordered", and I agree that it's "not a bad thing" for Maddie to want a civilized relationship. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's entirely possible that Maddie is not confused about wanting a civilized relationship. What I think she is conflicted about is whether or not she can ever have it with David, and what it would do to him. I think she does know that it's what she wants for herself. She's just not sure that kind of adjustment would be good for David. I think that's touched upon in season 4 in the scene where in Maddie's dream David appears as Pat Boone, whereas Maddie knows he's more of a "Body Heat" type of guy.
|
|
witness
3rd Level
"We're quite a pair, aren't we?"
Posts: 857
|
Post by witness on Sept 12, 2011 2:55:40 GMT -5
I'm with snap...
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Sept 12, 2011 2:56:33 GMT -5
Treasmus, maybe you could clarify something - I'm a bit puzzled now, but maybe it's just me. First, you said that a "civilized" relationship it just what Maddie wants. In Diane's opinion (please correct me if I got you wrong, Diane) Maddie just thinks that this is what she wants and needs whereas the opposite is true. And in your last reply to Diane's post you said that was just how you interpreted it. Sounds a bit of a contradiction to me, but I may have missed a point? Oh, one thing about David - you're right, it was hard for him to live up to Maddie's expectations; she was a constant challenge to him to bring out the best in him, maybe even to become a better person in certain ways (just as he was for her). But I don't think he ever tried to be someone else or to change his behavior to appear in a better light for her. I don't think David ever put up a mask for Maddie - that's just not his nature because I think he is a deeply honest person; he always stayed true to himself. I was replying to the part in bold. The part in bold is what I meant by "interpret it." 'It' is the part in bold. I don't think Maddie is deceiving herself into thinking a civilized relationship is what she wants, but I agree that by "civilized" Maddie means "less chaotic, less frenzied, more ordered", and I agree that it's "not a bad thing" for Maddie to want a civilized relationship. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's entirely possible that Maddie is not confused about wanting a civilized relationship. What I think she is conflicted about is whether or not she can ever have it with David, and what it would do to him. I think she does know that it's what she wants for herself. She's just not sure that kind of adjustment would be good for David. I think that's touched upon in season 4 in the scene where in Maddie's dream David appears as Pat Boone, whereas Maddie knows he's more of a "Body Heat" type of guy. OK, now it makes sense to me, thanks for the clarification. Defining "civilized" as "less chaotic" etc. doesn't indeed make it sound that bad. The conflict you mentioned seems indeed to be one Maddie had been pondering over, I agree. But I also think that - especially from the "Tracks of my tears" dream sequence you mentioned - you can clearly tell that a relationship with a Pat Boone kind of guy is not what Maddie really wants or needs. Anyway, I don't think that in the scene in question (the dancing scene from WGC) Maddie is still brooding over that question. Sad as it is, I think at that moment she has already given up on them a long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by sandra on Sept 12, 2011 3:14:17 GMT -5
OK, I wanted to play, so I have to come up with a season 5 scene as a "Don't like" for David, because I really can't find anything to dislike about him in the other seasons other than what I have already mentioned earlier. Taking something from season five is almost like cheating because I think that the characters - especially David - are not themselves anymore. But that's JMO.
So...
I really don't like David when he goes with a light, almost indifferent, even smiling "Yeah, you're right" over Maddie's refusal to "go out more often" in WGC - shame on you, buster! Giving up so easily doesn't become you!
I really don't like Maddie in To Heiress Human when she says to David, almost reproachfully, after waking up "You seem to have enjoyed yourself last night." - as if that were a bad thing, and as if she had not.
I really love Maddie when she snatches the cigarette from David's mouth in Knowing Her at the police station and snaps at him "Since when do you smoke?!" (paraphrasing) - it shows her concern about him and that she knows him very well, and the fact that she's upset shows her jealousy (and thus her affection for him) in a very subtle way.
I really love David in Atlas Belched, the scene when they debate whether or not giving the rolodex to Lou LaSalle in exchange for Maddie having Blue Moon back from him. First, he steps in front of her and declares firmly "I'm the boss", only to agree to the deal in her favor, and when Maddie reminds him that this would mean a step back for him, business-wise (from boss back to employee), he just says with a gracious, happy shrug "I know."
|
|