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Post by Marlena on Jan 20, 2021 23:31:17 GMT -5
Hi Everyone! Just adding to the conversation about Maddie's previous relationships. What about Charles from Money Talks...Maddie Walks. He clearly was a successful, rich guy that she knew (dated??) at some point. She refers to him "lying on the beach at Cannes"...was she with him? She also mentions playing Monopoly on a rainy day with an out of work model, while binging on Cheetos. Sounds to me like they were close at some point, but maybe not for very long since he doesn't seem to recognize her right away. Marta and Sandra, I'm enjoying reading your messages on the board. I always thought I analyzed Moonlighting, but you two take it to a deeper level, and I love it. Sandra, keep writing those fanfics with the happy endings. Maddie and David deserve it. And, you are such a talented writer.
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 21, 2021 5:44:58 GMT -5
Thank you moonlightingml! These are very good points. I missed these instances - it shows that I mostly watch the second part of the show. You also brought up the cruise in the comments on the pilot. It is not likely she would go alone (too boring, wouldn't you say?). Sam probably could not go with her as he had to finish his PhD... or was it MBA? (just kidding).
I am very glad that you gave me/us encouragement to write more, as I am brimming with knowledge and it will be some time before I get vaccinated and the more normal occupations resume. I got a bit concerned that we were taking over the board with Sandra.
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Post by luzdeluna on Jan 21, 2021 7:03:47 GMT -5
So there, I tried to make Sandra feel better about Maddie but it seems I haven’t done well! I will double my efforts but if I think more about Maddie I may get cross with her myself… Seriously, I would like to comment on the problems that you, Sandra, mentioned and try to explain how I think about them, but first we must establish whether my assertion that M and D do not commit to each other is true.
On whether Maddie commits to David Agnes proposed to Bert. Maddie never says anything beyond ‘I love you, David’.
On whether David commits to Maddie The closest to commitment that I could find in ML is David speech in ATFWMW, the last episode of Season 4. David: ‘I am going to be here when the baby comes and I will help you thorough that, so I guess it means that I have some kind of commitment to you.’ The baby does not make it and we do not hear about commitment again. There is also a significant, IMO, ‘exchange’ between them in the car leading to the above scene in ATFWMW. They converse through voiceovers. This is rare in ML but necessary here as the sentiments cannot be easily conveyed in any other way. David is scared of a new situation that they are facing (Maddie said that she loved him and he agreed to stay in the agency, she is going to have a baby). He is ‘not sure whether it is right’, he thinks ‘some people are better at arm's length than hand in hand’ and wonders whether they will ‘trade red hot tempers for a white picket fence’. He thinks it will lead him to adultery (searching for a D cup of sugar in the neighbourhood) while Maddie may lust after acquaintances.
She summarises it as ‘he’s wondering whether the idea of getting together was better than actually doing it will be’ and ‘he is looking at what we had been and losing faith in what we can be’. This could be dismissed as understandable pre-commitment jitters if we had something better than what followed and what followed was ‘some kind of commitment’. They seem to progress into happiness just before the miscarriage (AWWAW). They do not (and we do not) recover after the baby is lost.
Have I missed some other scene/s? I do wish I have.
To sweeten the realisation that neither of them offer more than as above… have a look at the following music video (Joe Jackson: You Can't Get What You Want Till You Know What You Want, 1984) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo759np9-nM
On whether David commits to Maddie I think you are missing a very important scene: the monologue in FNL! According to that, David even proposed to Maddie, but she said no...
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 21, 2021 9:31:06 GMT -5
Yes, we all remember that scene (FKL), it is very powerful. What I hear there though is 'would', which according to a dictionary means: (expressing the conditional mood) indicating the consequence of an imagined event or situation. He 'would ask her', not that he did ask her. I give David the benefit of the doubt, I am not saying that he is telling fibs, but that he cuts a long and complex story short to get through to Papa Hayes with his impassioned speech, slurring words. Observe that David also says that he went to Maddie's house at night to offer marriage but there was another man there. We all know that he did not go to offer marriage then and did not do it later when he had many opportunities. The main thing that is completely correct in his speech to Papa Hayes is that 'she would say no'. David ridicules the idea of marriage to Ray Charles and that was just before the last time David and Maddie saw each other before her escape to Chicago (ATTTM). He has never told her he wanted to grow old with her, but says 'this is not good enough for Maddie'.
Be careful there, David says that he would give his life for Maddie and tears up - it makes us all swoon and it may be true, but what may be needed is getting up at night to change diapers of the second child and this is where we are not so sure...
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Post by sandra on Jan 21, 2021 14:08:08 GMT -5
I'm so glad that you joined in on our brainstorming sessions concerning Moonlighting, Luzdeluna and Marlena! Like Marta, I sort of felt like maybe I needed to keep my cool for a few, since my name kept on popping up everywhere over here without an interruption from anyone else. Hahaha! I was beginning to fear you all thought that maybe, I didn't have anything else to do. I don't, by the way My country is in a lockdown and we have a curfew, so what the heck... My three-year-old daughter keeps me somewhat occupied, but sometimes... just sometimes.... I need to come here to blow off some steam. I hear you, Luzdeluna, about David's speech in FKL. I'm kind of somewhere in the middle between yours and Marta's opinion. While I do agree with Marta that, because David only had a limited amount of time to convince Mr. Hayes that he wasn't a bad guy, he prettied things up a bit. However, I really, really think that he felt and meant every word he said regarding commitment. Those tears happened for a reason. I think it was also this speech that made me want to gear up and throw all my frustrations in Maddie's direction. Haha! Anyway, please put your two cents in, all. If you have a completely different take, we want to hear about it. Everyone is looking at this show from their own frame of reference and perspective.
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 21, 2021 16:13:25 GMT -5
OK let’s unpack some of the issues from your three last posts, Sandra. First of all, congratulations! You admitted to some hidden truths so we will have an easier road ahead and probably be closer in our thinking about the essence of ML.
You wanted to throw things at Maddie, you say, and do not like Walter presence in the melee. Right, here we go!
Let’s appreciate Maddie’s dilemma fully. I just re-watched the laundromat scene (ATTTM). The heartbreaking laundromat scene. She was as honest as one could be. David was told that it was over and why, but he tried his ace of spades and despite her knowing that it would weaken her resolve she agreed to dance with him. Predictably, as a result she wasn’t sure about anything anymore.
I can imagine her state of mind on the plane later on and I ache with her, for him (in every sense of the word). There is a chance that in Chicago, not seeing him every day, she may recover her cool judgment. She forbids him to contact her. There is Papa Hayes unwittingly helping out by inquiring about David and saying what we all fear: ‘how is that business partner of yours? David, oh boy, is that a character! …we liked him… always to land on his feet… hard to pin down… not a long hold… as far as commitment… a real pro in business … it’s just how long will he stick around...’ And Mama Hayes trying hard to pretend she does not almost know why Maddie came home all of a sudden. All so very well acted, I almost feel this is a real family.
At this point we have all the information we need: the episodes so far, each presenting a different issue give us a full picture. There are differences in values (living for a day versus building something for the future). M is usually highly principled (returning money if not earned), D is an opportunist, he acts in an underhanded way and has no regrets about it (even corrupts her to follow his way in MFD). M is romantic, D is not. M is analytical, D is spontaneous; they hold it against each other. M learns how to admit she was wrong, he wiggles out of everything with levity. There are differences in their choices of entertainment. They differ in their attitudes to religion and money. They cannot communicate in a straightforward way. He embarrasses her with his lewdness. He puts a cherry on top in the next episode (CBLS) by crossing the line with vulgarity and disrespect when talking about her to her subordinates: ‘the date went great, she probably wants to sleep it off, LEARN HOW TO WALK AGAIN’. How old is he, 16? Well, she does not hear that but she knows enough already. So on the trip back, which the brave pregnant woman knows she has to take (and she wishes the trip to take forever), she meets Walter. Telling David that she does not have his baby (untrue) and is married to Walter (true) may save her from being tempted to dance with David again.
Maddie is a regular woman. She needs stability in her intimate relationship to be able to pursue child rearing and other interests in life. David is a caricature of a male, he is a rake. His main motivation in life has been ‘fun’: sex and boozing. He is not motivated by his profession, family or other interests.
So how do you feel about Walter now?
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Post by sandra on Jan 22, 2021 5:05:31 GMT -5
Right, maybe I need to clarify my issues with the Walter storyline.
I do not have a problem with the man himself, mind you. He's kind, genuine and I get how he would provide for the stability that Maddie may have needed as a single, pregnant woman. He's the exact opposite of David... almost boring (sorry, Walter) and I completely understand how he might be able to save Maddie from letting herself fall right back into David's arms again. Okay, so now she's married and provided a safe haven for herself and her baby. Up until this point, I can follow your theory, Marta... But then she STILL can't let go of David!
She walks out on her own wedding to follow him and Terri towards the hospital, only to demand an answer as to who the 'woman with David' is! When she is stopped by Walter, she's well aware of the fact that, if she continues to pursue David, her marriage will be over. No more stability... no more safe haven... and back to the dance with a man who she knows will not be what she wants in the end. Yet, she carries on anyway. She barges into that delivery room, screaming in her wedding dress and making quite a scene. Then, she lays one onto David in the middle of another woman's childbirth.
Is this a case of; 'I don't want him, but I don't want anyone else to have him either?' I don't exactly know where, but someone on this board mentioned that, even though Maddie is always pushing David away, she doesn't actually want him to leave. I agree with this. She can't let go; she needs him in her life, and she risked her own stable future for it to do so. She's keeping him from moving on, but more importantly: she's keeping HERSELF from moving on, forever trapping them together in this eternal dance that is called 'Moonlighting.'
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 22, 2021 7:33:31 GMT -5
Sandra, this is a historic moment. We have arrived onto the same ML page.
You’ve just answered yourself what the point of ML is: to watch the dance and ache.
The art is said to be admired for its beauty or emotional power. A TV show will never be regarded as art, in my view this is what ML is, a piece of art. The show broke new grounds stylistically and displayed a virtuoso-like mastery of the medium. It keeps us hooked because its dance is like life itself, nothing is for certain or forever.
Enough of that (too deep)! Back to Maddie.
IMO, Maddie cannot let go for several reasons.
She is in love (or in very serious lust), against her better judgment. (‘Who knows the answers, who do you trust? I can't even separate love from lust’. Twentysomething, Jamie Cullum). Seeing him again brought the feeling back strongly.
Another reason is that she has a very high opinion of herself and is very used to be a queen bee. In KH, she is not sexually jealous of Jillian, she is angry that she may lose her status as David’s centre of attention if he gets back with J. She goes after D to NYC in BMOMS and having done a ‘what am I doing here’ speech, after which dumbfounded D accepts her presence, she barges into his life completely. She assumes that she is attending the funeral and goes to the wake to find out more about his life. Not much respect for his privacy there… It is all about what she wants. It is ‘natural’ to her that David is attracted to her, she says so in THH. She says ‘I never wanted you’ in IACM and she means it, who is David to aspire to her? She follows him onto the staircase when he says ‘you are not worth it’ because she gets mad - ‘I am not worth it?!’ Maddie says on another occasion: ‘I will be under your skin for a very long time, buster’ (or words to that effect). There are other examples, I am sure, I may add them here for completeness, as I recall them or find them when re-watching. I hope you will help me, guys.
In fact, IMO, the last scene in WGC, when she is on D’s bed and he runs after A, includes a reference to this feeling (as well as many others, of course), I think. She realises (and accepts, I think) that she is losing her status as the queen bee. He may sleep with A for his gratification, not just to make her jealous. Seems obvious to us but it has not been to her for a long time. To somebody celebrated for their beauty for many years it must have been very difficult not to be the centre of attention, finally. In MHGM, David acts amused, not in love and Terry is also pregnant. It is competition in every discipline and it drives her mad.
I will leave one reason why she cannot let go for later, I am quietly hoping that somebody else picks it up, but we had many red herrings, so it is difficult.
So who is going to protest that the above reasons are not THE reasons? (so I can bite their head off!...)
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Ramblings
Jan 22, 2021 9:18:46 GMT -5
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Post by Marlena on Jan 22, 2021 9:18:46 GMT -5
Wow, I'm reading everything you all are writing about the show being like a dance, and that M and D are not really compatible because of their differences, but it all just breaks my heart. I need to believe they will end up together like I need air to breathe.
I feel like I read somewhere that Glenn Gordon Caron's idea for the show was to be the melting of the ice queen, or like Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew. In Atomic Shakespeare, the two characters end up together in the end, both having changed significantly. Petruchio learns to respect Kate as a woman and his wife, and Kate loses her anger as she feels her voice and opinions are being heard.
I wonder, had GCC not left, how this show would have ended. I wonder if it was GGC's intent for Maddie, the ice queen, to thaw and become more emotional and vulnerable with David. I think that as Maddie began to realize that she was not the queen bee, that she would know she'd have to open up and tell David how she felt. It would have been great had we been able to see more of Maddie fighting to get David back.
And also, I think that, given the chance, David would have been a terrific husband to Maddie, and a great father. When he got Tess pregnant as a teenager, he took responsibility, and it was Tess who ruined their marriage. Jillian blindsided David, and left his heart shattered. Terri got to see how wonderful David could be.
I think the reason why writers are moved to create fan fiction here is because we see so much unrealized potential for Maddie and David to finally work it out. When a good writer who really knows how to make these characters move and talk decides to give them a happy ending, it's just so magical and I really believe it.
Just to summarize, I think it was GGC's intent for M and D to evolve over time and end up happily together. Thoughts?
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 22, 2021 11:06:23 GMT -5
I see all my efforts undone by an acute outbreak of shipping...
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Ramblings
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Post by Marlena on Jan 22, 2021 12:00:23 GMT -5
Sorry Marta, I read everything you wrote, and I am trying to see it your way, but I.....just....can't. Besides, this is not an acute outbreak of shipping. This is a chronic condition, been going on for over 35 years now.
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Post by sandra on Jan 22, 2021 13:20:34 GMT -5
I get it, Marlena. I really do. If you re-read my posts, you can almost feel my pain in my discussions with Marta. I wanted to throw things... sometimes at Marta for trying to make me change my point of view. Hahahaha! Sorry, Marta! Now, I do believe, like you, that if given the chance, David would have been a good husband to someone. Life, and women, kept on taking that chance away from him, I don't believe that what we see on the show is David's entire persona. He's a clown with a carefully measured poker face. It's there for a reason; he doesn't want to get hurt again and this is his way to do that. He needs someone to ground him again. And yes, Maddie hurt him the worst. So is she the one to do that? We'll have to answer that question for ourselves. You pointing out that you've been shipping these two so hard made me think about things: I've also been shipping them for 26 years straight (I came across Moonlighting a little later) and I haven't let go during all that time. Why them and why for so long? I mean, I've shipped couples after them: I was an avid Buffy and Angel shipper when Buffy the Vampire Slayer was on (Yes, I know. Everyone always wanted her with Spike, but I wanted her with Angel). Yet, when the show ended, I didn't particularly seem to care anymore. With Maddie and David, that feeling of wanting them together never left. Maybe Marta is right about the carefully played out ache on the show; it got into our heads and into our hearts. It's why I resorted to fanfiction. We need that ache to go away! But with Moonlighting, it never did. They left it simmering, making us always want Maddie and David together. They made us crave more, but never gave it. Kind of cruel, isn't it? But hey, there's always fanfiction and I for one, still need for that ache to go away. So on with the writing again! To end this post on a humorous note; both of you mentioning that Maddie was like a queen bee and needed the attention made me giggle and pat myself on the back for naming my own cat Maddie. She definitely is a Maddie. I rescued her from an animal shelter years ago, when I was still single. Then, I began to date my husband and she didn't take well to that. Every time my husband and I would even try and sit next to each other on the couch, the little critter would throw her body in between us, demanding to be noticed. Hahaha! It took a while, but in the end, she was okay with the new situation. As long as my husband gave her all the attention she wanted
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Post by sandra on Jan 22, 2021 14:50:44 GMT -5
Right, I came back again because I felt bad. I kind of want to give Marlena a virtual hug right now; we never meant to break your heart with our musings. It was just another perspective, to explain Maddie's behavior in season 4 (and 5). I understood Marta's points, but I understand yours as well; after all these discussions, I still can't let go of Maddie and David either. I don't think I'll ever fully be able to.
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marta
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Post by marta on Jan 22, 2021 19:44:47 GMT -5
So here I am talking about uncertainty being at the core of this piece of art and all you want is a happy ending of a romantic comedy…
I think that the ending of the show is so much in keeping with the style of the whole that the show could not end in any other way. A Masterpiece. Speculations what GGC could have - would have - are to me … hmmm… pointless (sorry). The show is the product finalised 35 year ago. It is what it is. It will not have any other ending. Ever. (just pushing the knife further... no harm done I hope?...)
As you know, I suspect that GGC exerted some control throughout the whole show, but it is REALLY neither here nor there. He could have changed his mind in those 5 years, maybe even several times? Who knows. He probably still remembers but I also suspect he is not likely to tell as it is not in his interest to over-explain the show. I understand the appeal of producing different endings. I would not, but I get it. My regret is not knowing how the Det. Sgt. Donnigan plot would unfold. They were clearly laying foundations for some story there and before the show abrupt finalisation they were planning to do 3 or 4 more episodes. This is where I fantasise what could have happened, but all that within the same framework – the same ending – the romance running its course or should we say – left hanging ambiguously - and all of us going back to the ‘reality’ of a tv show production.
But wait! Isn’t she saying: 'I can't imagine not seeing you tomorrow...’ that’s something isn’t it?! (Breaks my heart, actually)
It would be foolish to expect to shift the opinion of such hard core shippers (who even write funfiction!), but you can probably agree with this: we would not be hooked as we are if the show ended conventionally. From my previous post: ‘I will leave one reason why she cannot let go for later, I am quietly hoping that somebody else picks it up, but we had many red herrings, so it is difficult.’ Well, go ahead and ask me what it is, for xst sake! I have some skin in these posts too!
How is your cat doing, Sandra? How old is she?
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Post by sandra on Jan 23, 2021 3:10:57 GMT -5
Are you making fun of my fiction, now, Marta? Because then, the gloves are coming off again. Yes, I write. It's who I am. It's what I do, and not just about Maddie and David. I've written entire plot points (not just for fanfiction) and a lot of those didn't end on a happy note. I've already explained that I'm not your typical happy ending type of gal, but yes, I wanted that happy ending to happen for Maddie and David. In one of my last posts I agreed with you that maybe, I found it difficult to let go because of the well played out dance and ache that the show introduced. The ache is what made us really invested and let's face it: why we are all still here. Yesterday, we reached a point of understanding. At the very start of our discussions, you wanted me to see Maddie in a different light. That was the base of what our talks were about. I was angry with her for hurting David all throughout season 4 and yet, your carefully laid out explanations changed that point of view. I understand her actions better now and you've accomplished that. I love how you are making us look at this show from a different perpective and I respect your opinions. You can't expect me to toss 26 years of wanting a happy ending overnight, we still have some talking to do! So please, don't be frustrated; I saw your point of view, I got to your page of the Moonlighting book, but you have to give me a little more time to see the rest. Remember, I'm like Maddie and Maddie had some issues letting go as well Now, please tell us your third reason why Maddie can't let go. I do want to know, it just got lost in all the posts. On to my cat, Maddie! She's fifteen now. A real oldie, but you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at her. She still acts like she's five, with the way she's able to jump up on our fence in the yard, climb trees and what not. Our neighbours were shocked when we told them her age. And yes, like I said: she's attention hungry. After our daughter was born and we got home from the hospital, she was meowing the entire night, so my husband ended up sleeping next to her on the couch to shut her up. Hahahaha! Thankfully, that behavior only lasted that one night. She and my daughter are tight buddies now. Maddie let's her get away with everything. Let's hope the little critter still has a few miles left
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