David proposed to Maddie between CHDp2 and FKL

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The topic of David's unseen proposal has been discussed by others on this board, but never conclusively pinned down as far as I can find.

When the inmates harrass David in CHDp2 about not proposing to Maddie, he does not dispute the allegation and even responds, "Neither of us was ready to make a commitment." And then, in the very next episode (FKL), he tells Mr. Hayes, "Marry her? Hell yes, I'd marry her. I asked her. She said no."

It seems unlikely that he would lie in either situation. With the inmates being both strangers (who are objective and therefore sometimes easier to confide in) and men who are giving him a hard time about not "manning up", he would all but certainly tell them if he had proposed. With Mr. Hayes, David knows that any claim he makes of having proposed could be instantly "fact checked" via a simple, subsequent father/daughter conversation. Someone so obviously trying to win over both daughter and father would not set himself up so easily to be viewed by both of them as a liar.

Assuming, therefore, that David was being truthful both times, the only point at which he could have proposed that is supported by the evidence is sometime between CHDp2 and FKL. It seems to me that the most likely scenario is this:

David left a message on Maddie's machine for her to hear later that, though he had his bags half-packed for Chicago with the intent of proposing in person, he received her "thanks for the space; I love you" message and has chosen to continue respecting her wishes and ask her via voice mail to marry him. Maddie must then have received his message and called him back, saying that she appreciates the gesture and knows he is good for it based on his history with Tess, but that she really can't accept his proposal under these circumstances.  She has to be sure he's not just doing "the honorable thing" one more time, and that she herself needs more time to "sort things out."

If anyone has any thoughts on a more likely scenario, please feel free to share.  As for me for now, though, this is the best fitting puzzle piece I can come up with for another hole sadly left for us by Moonlighting seasons 4-5.

[marta]

My objections are as follows.

Viewers witness the pivotal moments of ML or are advised about them unequivocally. The first ‘I love you’ by David is not audible, but it is referenced by both of them in the conversation about the pact the following day: ‘...you remember what you told me…’ ‘… I meant it…’. A proposal is important so it would be marked in an unambiguous way.


There is absolutely no time, space and psychologically appropriate moment for a proposal, even as you suggest, via an answering machine (which even requires some lapse of time between a call and response).
David returns from Nevada to his apartment, finds the ‘I love you’ message, which makes him decide not to fly to Chicago. He fronts up to the stripped office on the same day (I presume, but this is the most logical) where, a few moments later he is met by Mr Hayes. David hardly has time to scratch his head, the developments are piling up on him, he would not have a moment to think about calling Maddie with a proposal and if he did, the timing is not appropriate. And here is why: he savours the recorded message from her and remembers that it came about because he did what she asked him to do –that is not to fly to Chicago. She also asked him not to call. How likely is it that he would call with the proposal under these circumstances in a few hours that he has, in which he could possibly do it?


I’ve insisted on calling his speech to Mr Hayes ‘fibbing’, because this is the softest description of what is happening here in my vocabulary.

Let’s see what David is like. He thinks quickly on his feet. We have seen him do it many times in earlier and later episodes. He is not a squeaky clean, highly principled person. This is a source of much conflict between him and M throughout the series. So he is used to be flexible with facts. He is also very controlled emotionally and maintains his wise cracking cool guy persona very well in most situations. Like most self –disciplined persons when he loses it, he really loses it. All these features have bearing on the plane speech.

David is so tired of all the nonsense that he has been through and so invested in getting his side of the story across to Mr Hayes that he says his truth to him, regardless of anything. Regardless how it fits with his image, and regardless of the facts. This is how I see it. Its David’s truth. Whether he actually proposed is less relevant than the fact that he pours his deepest feelings to another man. The most surprising statement to me was the ‘give my life for her’. It does not fit with his cool judgment and very perceptive assertions about human relations that we hear in ML and enjoy. It is a bit over the top for me, even in this speech. I suppose, this and him tearing up was to signify that despite what the facts are, David is so caught in the moment that he is thoroughly sincere.

It is easy to interpret the event in another light. David is lying, he obtains financial advantage by deception and we never hear about a follow up and Blue Moor repaying the money. I suppose the interpretation is in the eye of a viewer. And the actor skill – BW is so good that he can put across a believable picture of emotional desperation. I am convinced David is a tormented man, not a con artist.

In the view of the above description of the emotional cornerstones of the situation, the consideration that a lie would be exposed is not relevant. David is not a lawyer planning a tricky defence carefully considering what is likely to be exposed as not a fact. He is highly upset and acting in the moment.

When we get back to Maddie’s conversations with her mother and father and analyse those, I think we can appreciate how highly unlikely it is that her father would ask her about the details of her relationship with David. Alex and Virginia try to assist but keep their distance as far as their worry about her allows. Mr Hayes is more of an interventionist (and we are grateful to him) but he knows that he cannot push her too much, vis. the scene at the fireplace at night in TALATA. There will be no ‘fact checking’ between these two.

[Boink]

It is not difficult to imagine David proposing to Maddie via voice mail within minutes or hours of listening to her message, which I get the impression happens in the late afternoon or early evening.  She could easily have gotten the message and called him back that night, or even the following morning before he goes to work, not needing too much time to politely decline as I describe above and re-assert her need for more time.  After all, she not long ago arrived at the conclusion about marriage that, "Maybe it's only possible to be sure you're not ready."

Yes, we should have been allowed to witness the proposal, but this is the series that removed David's, "I love you, Maddie" from IACM (note that "Be My Baby" does not drown out the sound of David and Maddie's kiss seconds earlier), and the season that has David in a tux kiss Maddie in a wedding gown without ever giving viewers their wedding.  It just ain't fair.

[marta]

I can only reassert:

'… he savours the recorded message from her and remembers that it came about because he did what she asked him to do – that is not to fly to Chicago. She also asked him not to call. How likely is it that he would call with the proposal under these circumstances in a few hours that he has, in which he could possibly do it?'

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It's not like David pulled the idea of proposing to Maddie out of thin air as he packs his bags at the end of CHDp2.  He has been in prison for some time, on-screen and almost certainly off-screen going over and over in his mind, word for word, what he wants to say to Maddie.  The musical "dream sequence" with the inmates was focused entirely on the thought of proposing marriage.

Yes, Maddie's, "I appreciate your respecting my feelings... I love you" message affected him.  He went from packing his bags for Chicago to (in my scenario) saying what he had to say via voice mail (as we already witnessed him do in TITC, thus still playing by her "rules").  He has allowed her time to think and will continue to do so, but he also wants the readiness he has found for marriage during the same time to be a factor in her thinking.

One afternoon voice mail proposal for Maddie.
One late evening call back to David with a polite rejection and stated need for more time, which he very likely expected (and which he reports to Mr. Hayes).

At least he said what CHDp2 clearly showed was on his mind, and no fibbing is required in FKL to make it fit.

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    I have just now noticed an additional detail in EAS which all but confirms my "proposal via phone message" theory:
    When Agnes tells Maddie that everyone in the office feels let down by her marriage to Walter, and that she thought what Maddie and David have "was realer than that", Maddie responds with the following:
    "When I got on that train, I didn't know what I was going to do.  I didn't know what was going to happen.  All I knew was that I belonged here, and that you cared.  And that he really cared.  Getting the baby books and the phone messages, I mean.  I was determined to work it out."
    Key words here: "phone messages"

    The only phone message we ever witnessed David leaving for Maddie followed his discovery that she checks her messages in TITC.  He was angry in that episode and told her to "stay in Chicago" - hardly a message that showed "he really cared", or that would encourage whatever determination she may have had when boarding the train to "work it out."
    And it is just one message.

    In FKL, after saying to Mr. Hayes, "Marry her?  Hell yes,  I'd marry her.  I asked her.  She said no.", David closes his speech with this calm declaration:
    "If this thing's going to work... this whole relationship, this whole thing with me and her, the baby, all of it...  If it's going to work, she's gotta come talk to me now."
    In short, he would be leaving her no more phone messages.

    So, what happened between TITC and FKL that resulted in Maddie referencing "phone messages" which (along with the baby books) showed "he really cared"?  How significant must the substance of his next phone message have been that it, even when combined with "stay in Chicago", left a net resulting impression on her that "he really cared" and a determination in her, if only as she boarded the train, "to work it out"?
    It's really quite simple...

    EAS provides yet another bit of evidence supporting the theory that David proposed to Maddie via phone message in the minutes or hours after CHDp2.