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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 30, 2009 23:46:31 GMT -5
IBM---- you are SO funny!! Texas Band......omg!! I have always thought Sam was a Sham, but I think I might have gotten it from Virtual Moonlighting? I don't really remember. I do know that I never trusted Sam the Sham!! Why didn't he tell Maddie that David was at her door in the pouring rain late at night.....with flowers......looking like a man on a mission....... And THEN, he acts like they have never met the next night at dinner when David pops in....... And THEN he just leaves while Maddie is out....kinda cowardly...... What kind of guy does that to a woman he has asked to marry him??!! A SHAM!! ;D Did I say I don't like him either??!! ;D Yeah, I'm just full of surprises, aren't I? Oh yes, you're right: there really is a VM story entitled "Sam The Sham"!! Why didn't he tell Maddie, why did he act like he had never met Dave? Because he is a RAT BASTARD!!! Oh, wait until we're gonna rewatch those episodes, bees, you just wait and see... I'm gonna kill him...then I'm gonna kill him again....I HATE THAT MAN!!! Even more than A***e. 'Nuff said.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 31, 2009 0:39:18 GMT -5
And IBM Wooly bully? Too funny, read my PM to you, so weird! Ahhh great great minds think alike! WHO is the great mind, besides you, I mean? ;D You like that song? Wait! I'm gonna sing it all! Uno, dos, one, two, tres, quatro *blah blah, senseless blah blah* Matty told Hatty about a thing she saw Had two big horns and a wooly jaw Wooly bullyyyyyy, wooly bully That's right! Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully. Hatty told Matty, "Let's don't take no chance Let's not be L-seven, come and learn to dance." Wooly bullyyyyyy, wooly bully Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully. Watch it now, watch it, watch it, watch it! YEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH! YEAH!
*dancing on instrumental*
Matty told Hatty, "That's the thing to do Get you someone really to pull the wool with you." Wooly bullyyyyyy, wooly bully. Wooly bully, wooly bully, wooly bully.
Watch it now, watch it! Here it comes!
You got it, you got it! WHOA! Time's up! * Holding a side plate, begging for money (Euro change only, please) * ;D
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Jan 31, 2009 13:09:14 GMT -5
You guys are all very sweet; this is probably the only place I've ever been encouraged to, well, think too much. Thanks for the kind words. This truly is a refuge for all us 'essed' folks, eh? Beesnbears, that was a great post! Nothing wrong with different opinions--it's what makes these boards so engaging. In keeping with the 'essed' action, I think I'll offer some rebuttals to your rebuttals (which I guess makes these re-rebuttals? I don't know.) I completely agree that Maddie's an expert at the Avoidance Game, but I think if you look at her arc in season three, starting with the premiere, she's slowly been coming around to the idea of being with David. It sort of culminates in IAWJ (and culminates in a much different way in IAC...M, of course ), where she makes that not-so-subtle comment, something to the effect of, "If people are meant to be together, they'll find each other." (I really do think of IAWJ as Maddie's Big Realization Episode; whether or not she suppresses those feelings is another matter.) There's also "Big Man on Mulberry Street", which (with the possible exception of the apartment scene in "Maddie's Turn to Cry") contains the most honest moment(s) between Maddie and David, IMO. When Maddie shows up at his hotel room, she is so heartbreakingly sincere. When she tells him "I certainly have plenty of things I've never talked to you about", I personally take that as a reference to her feelings for David--she's never talked to him about the possibility of a romantic relationship. That line, coupled with "It's not like we have that kind of relationship...it's not like we're...", illuminates Maddie's reason for being jealous about David's wife, and so taken aback by his marriage. I also sense that Maddie's sort of frustrated with herself, with her inability to admit to David--to herself--that she wants him. This is a childish way to put it, but Maddie does kind of have to get over herself at this point; she has to get past her notion of the "perfect" life, the "perfect" guy for her--she has to admit that David is the guy she's supposed to be with. In a way, getting together with David shows tremendous growth in Maddie's character. I guess what I'm saying is that, at least subconsciously, Maddie's come to the realization that she wants, needs, loves David. So if she's still playing the Avoidance Game in "Sam & Dave", I don't think it's to the same extent that she's been playing it for the past two years. In S&D (maybe even BoB), I noticed the cracks in her emotional armor. Maybe my phrasing was a bit harsh, but I do think that Maddie was at least partially motivated by a sense of obligation. Couple that with the need for, at the very least, physical contact that she expressed in BoB, and I think you've got about 75% of Maddie's motivation for sleeping with Sam. I do think she had unresolved emotional issues with him--what with him being an old, maybe even first love; I didn't mean to imply that she had no feelings for Sam. But I think that look she has at the end of the episode is a result of her realizing that she wasn't there emotionally. She did kind of go through the motions. When Elaine Johnson says, in the next episode, that "men make love with their bodies, we make love with our hearts", Maddie has this "Whoops" look about her. Her heart wasn't in it with Sam, ultimately. Subconsciously, I think she does. This is probably an argument that can go either way, and maybe you're right in saying that Maddie's avoiding her pretty little head off . But I do think that the fact that Maddie opens up to David says something, whether Maddie realizes it or not. I agree that Maddie's relationship with Sam wasn't about David. Again--and this is kind of back-peddling on my part--I think the actions I observed in S&D could've been subconsciously motivated. By the beginning of IAC...M, though, I do think Maddie's at the point where she wants to goad David into admitting he has feelings for her. Granted, this is after she's come to some decisions regarding her feelings for Sam. But you're definitely right in saying that Maddie's confusion is driven by the notion that, by this point in her life, she should settle down. And Sam is definitely more of a settling-down type. You know, I really didn't notice it the first time, but Sam was kind of a jerk from the start. Most everything he did--from driving David home to making Maddie dinner and waiting up 'til the wee hours for her to come home--was motivated by his desire to look like The Good Guy, The Right Choice. He recognized David as a threat from the get-go, and for good reason. Sham is right! ;D Unimportant? You just gave me a real mental work-out, bees! Such great observations!
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Post by beesnbears on Jan 31, 2009 17:53:39 GMT -5
This is fun!! Ok, here are some of my rebuttals to the re-rebuttals!! There's also "Big Man on Mulberry Street", which (with the possible exception of the apartment scene in "Maddie's Turn to Cry") contains the most honest moment(s) between Maddie and David, IMO. When Maddie shows up at his hotel room, she is so heartbreakingly sincere. When she tells him "I certainly have plenty of things I've never talked to you about", I personally take that as a reference to her feelings for David--she's never talked to him about the possibility of a romantic relationship. That line, coupled with "It's not like we have that kind of relationship...it's not like we're...", illuminates Maddie's reason for being jealous about David's wife, and so taken aback by his marriage Completely agree here. There are times that something will happen with one of them or between them that causes Maddie to forget her brain momentarily and listen to her heart. BMOMS is definitely one of those times, I think. But I think that look she has at the end of the episode is a result of her realizing that she wasn't there emotionally. She did kind of go through the motions. When Elaine Johnson says, in the next episode, that "men make love with their bodies, we make love with our hearts", Maddie has this "Whoops" look about her. Her heart wasn't in it with Sam, ultimately. Agree here as well. And watch David when Ms. Johnson says it......he knows Maddie is conflicted and I think he almost enjoys it. Which is why he has not said the very things that Maddie needs to hear! It is just like what he says in IAC....M. He doesn't think words need to be used to express how he feels about her. Unfortunately though, what he does not realize is most women have to hear the words!! Even though this about him bothers me, probably as much as Maddie, ;D it is still something I have always liked about his character.........he is always the optimist and very confident. Not that he does not have his lows, he just seems to always bounce back!! (ok, I know that seemed to be 2 conflicting statements that made no sense, but it is the only way I can explain it right now!!) Thanks for the fun gorky!!
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Post by lin212 on Jan 31, 2009 19:10:32 GMT -5
bees, you crack me up! So, tell us how you really feel about Sam...LOL When you mentioned that "most women have to hear the words", correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Sam ever tells Maddie he loves her. What kind of proposal is that - "wife and wife"?
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Post by beesnbears on Jan 31, 2009 20:16:49 GMT -5
correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Sam ever tells Maddie he loves her. What kind of proposal is that - "wife and wife"? Exactomundo!!! I don't trust the guy as far as I can spit!!! ;D .....don't worry, YA'LL.....women from Texas don't go around spittin'!!! LOL!!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 31, 2009 20:25:20 GMT -5
Agree here as well. And watch David when Ms. Johnson says it......he knows Maddie is conflicted and I think he almost enjoys it. Which is why he has not said the very things that Maddie needs to hear! It is just like what he says in IAC....M. He doesn't think words need to be used to express how he feels about her. Unfortunately though, what he does not realize is most women have to hear the words!! Even though this about him bothers me, probably as much as Maddie, ;D it is still something I have always liked about his character.........he is always the optimist and very confident. Not that he does not have his lows, he just seems to always bounce back!! (ok, I know that seemed to be 2 conflicting statements that made no sense, but it is the only way I can explain it right now!!) Wow! Looks like you girls are having oodles of fun on this thread, huh? Way to go! Just jumping in to put my 2 cent in... (by golly, another rhyme!! ) About the three magic words most women want to hear... I think it's a very subjective matter. I believe rational ladies, such as Maddie, for instance, need that kind of confirmation when engaged in a romantic relationship. They need to be sure, because they never allow themselves to fail...at anything! They feel the need to foresee, program the future. They need to be in control. And then there's another category of women (and yours truly belongs to this one ) who rely upon instinct. Love is something you feel...Words (i.e. reason) are pointless. You either see (if there's something to be seen) what is buried deep in his eyes...or you don't see it. You either crave to lay him on a desk (or a bed, or a carpet, or whatever unusual spots you may find...intriguing! ) like a blotter...Or you just don't. "You know it and I know it"...Instinct. We know Maddie is conflicted, she sorta seems to have a double personality; this ambivalence obviously emerges in the final sequence of IAC...M. What she's experiencing within herself is a war: Reason vs Instinct. Thought vs Flesh. And, if I might add, it is one of the most ancient conflicts a woman has to solve, within herself, by herself...for herself. Sooner or later, the answer must be found. As I said early on, it's a very personal, very subjective matter. Speaking of ML, Maddie is (mostly) Reason, David is (again, mostly) Instinct. In IAC...M, Maddie finally lets herself go. She decides to unleash the beast (oh my, am I allowed to write such things on this board?? LOL! ;D)... Soooo.... ...Nothing but fireworks are expected to spring from their union! And !!! ;D
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Jan 31, 2009 22:33:43 GMT -5
IBM, I just saw your PM. A zillion thanks--you sure know how to flatter an overzealous analyzer like myself! My smileys pale in comparison to yours, but please accept this little grinning fella as a token of my appreciation. ;D And bees, I agree entirely with this: It is pretty frustrating, David's inability to say those three little words. I don't think he would've been able to tell Maddie he loved her that night at the restaurant, even if S(h)am hadn't interrupted him. And I think it's because, to David, it's self-evident--of course he loves her. Can't she see that? The moment where it really bothers me, though, is at the beginning of IAC...M, where Maddie confronts him--"How do you feel about me, David? How do you feel about all this, David?"--and he says nothing. Granted, Bruce plays that moment so brilliantly--you can see the tears in his eyes, the pain on his face--and it's a very Dave-like response, but it's still infuriating (from my perspective, as well as Maddie's). I think you said it perfectly: Maddie needs to hear those words. In the two years she's known him, he hasn't shown much interest in long-term relationships; she's looking for a committment--she tells him as much--and an "I love you" is just what the situation calls for. Although, in the bedroom scene in IAC...M, David's "I don't have to say anything" does make me melt a little. I'll join you over at the Contradiction Club. Brilliant post, IBM, and a succinct, perfect take on the Maddie/David dynamic. That's why their relationship is so engrossing, and why we're still so 'essed'. I think you nailed it. Thanks, all, for the lively conversation. It really is fun.
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Post by rose35 on Jan 31, 2009 23:16:05 GMT -5
IBM said: * Holding a side plate, begging for money (Euro change only, please) * ------------------------------------------------------------------ OH IBM you are the other great mind, well great great mind i must say, greater than me for sure! Thanks for seranading me! HEHEHE IBM said: Speaking of ML, Maddie is (mostly) Reason, David is (again, mostly) Instinct. In IAC...M, Maddie finally lets herself go. She decides to unleash the beast (oh my, am I allowed to write such things on this board?? LOL! )... Soooo.... ...Nothing but fireworks are expected to spring from their union! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AHHH so well put IBM! You crack me up too , i think what you said was FINE for this board LOL No cursing there so it's OK i think LOL Gorky said: Brilliant post, IBM, and a succinct, perfect take on the Maddie/David dynamic. That's why their relationship is so engrossing, and why we're still so 'essed'. I think you nailed it. Thanks, all, for the lively conversation. It really is fun. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- AHH Gorky i so agree! You guys are the best! Can i say I love you all, nothing personal! LOL I just get gooosebumps reading all these posts! Im crazy right? I also agree wholeheartedly Maddie needed to hear those 3 words and David feels they dont need to be said, Ahhh these 2 kids are so different thats why they are perfect for each other LOL
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Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 31, 2009 23:26:23 GMT -5
IBM, I just saw your PM. A zillion thanks--you sure know how to flatter an overzealous analyzer like myself! My smileys pale in comparison to yours, but please accept this little grinning fella as a token of my appreciation. ;D Your token of appreciation is very appreciated, dear gorky! I'm always glad to be of help (if I can)!! ;D Just a few more re-re-re-re-rebuttals... It is pretty frustrating, David's inability to say those three little words. His love runs too deep to be diminished by words... And I think it's because, to David, it's self-evident--of course he loves her. Can't she see that? No, she can't. Her sixth sense is numbed by too much reasoning... The moment where it really bothers me, though, is at the beginning of IAC...M, where Maddie confronts him--"How do you feel about me, David? How do you feel about all this, David?"--and he says nothing. Granted, Bruce plays that moment so brilliantly--you can see the tears in his eyes, the pain on his face--and it's a very Dave-like response, but it's still infuriating (from my perspective, as well as Maddie's). I think you said it perfectly: Maddie needs to hear those words. In the two years she's known him, he hasn't shown much interest in long-term relationships; she's looking for a commitment--she tells him as much--and an "I love you" is just what the situation calls for. Dave is allergic to straight answers, baby... Although, in the bedroom scene in IAC...M, David's "I don't have to say anything" does make me melt a little. I'll join you over at the Contradiction Club. No contradiction, IMO: just honesty. His being in her bed speaks for itself. The look in his eyes speaks for him. Words. Words weaken Passion. They break the spell. Thanks, all, for the lively conversation. It really is fun. Of course it is FUN! And educational, no? See you on Tuesday night, gorky! You think this was fun? Wait till we get you there!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 1, 2009 1:16:12 GMT -5
i think what you said was FINE for this board LOL No cursing there so it's OK i think LOL Thank you, deary! Phew! I made it through censorship! ;D BTW, just noticed a thing for the very first time... Take a look at this: This board is for a general audience so no profanity, adult themes, or inappropriate language is allowed. You must be a member to create or reply to a thread, but even guests can view messages so therefore it is recommended that you do not post any personal information (full name, address, phone number) as anyone can view this information. This includes other people's info. This Board is owned and moderated by DavidandMaddie.com. Agree on everything, of course, BUT...What about the wording "adult themes" By golly, this is the ML Fans Discussion board, isn't it? What else should we be discussing about??? Pekingeses??? ;D Cindy, Diane, Rose...You know I'm kiddin' as usual, don't you? ;D Ahhh these 2 kids are so different thats why they are perfect for each other LOL Baby, you have no idea what you just did (don't worry, it's a good thing!!)... You just gave me an excuse to stump (yes, once again ;D ) you guys! It involves a research... HA! I can see your faces right now! "Another research? Noooooooooooooooo* " *they die asphyxiated* ;D No more dream analyses, cross my heart! You're really gonna like this one! You'll see...
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 1, 2009 15:25:47 GMT -5
..... it's just that she's craving it from a different person.And that's the biggest realization I had, watching the episode this time: Maddie already knows who she really wants to be with. If you consider "It's a Wonderful Job" the last canon episodeI don't know....does she really think that it is David she wants during the BOB speech? I feel she has pushed him out her her mind over the course of time from IAWJ and BOB!!! The Maddie Hayes Supremes imitation!! ;D Pushing away what she never fathomed would make her happy....a guy like David!!! Bees, you're thinking like a guy... Of course it's David she wants and Maddie knows it! There's a saying..."you never take a problem to someone who can't help you remedy it". Maddie opens up to David in a way that releases her from the liability of rejection yet allows her to impress her feelings upon him. How did Maddie know David would bite? Maddie knows David, he's always able to feel when she's bothered and has never failed to inquire. Maddie's speech in BoB displays she is at her breaking point, she can't take it anymore. Maddie gave David the opportunity to step up and say "I'll be bad with you, I'll be good with ya, I'll be good to ya~I'll do ya right Baby"... He didn't. This takes me to IAC...M, Maddie expresses (during her Supreme's imitation) for David to "speak now or forever hold his peace". Then at the end (which is the topic of our discussion here) Maddie tells him again "And you said nothing, this whole time you haven't said anything" (quote may be off, just my recollection of it) I feel this extends from BoB. I digress, Maddie sleeps with "Sham" (lol) because he's safe, familiar to her and she desires to be loved, touched, needed by someone...even if it's not David. Sham is conveniently positioned at this time to fulfill Maddie's need, yet, the next morning she realizes this action has only made circumstances more complicated because it not the Love she desires...she's still unfulfilled...that's the look on her face the next morning. Maddie is then ready to put herself out there with David because she knows her desire can only be met by his Love. When Maddie goes into David's office asking him about his interruption during her and Sham's dinner; she's beating around the bush (had to say it, lol ;D), gradually leaning on David to speak his feelings. The courage to go to David's home in the middle of the night stems from Maddie's feelings over flowing within; she has tried to find the fulfillment in someone else, it didn't work. Just my take though...great discussion guys, just great!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 1, 2009 16:35:56 GMT -5
And then there's another category of women (and yours truly belongs to this one ) who rely upon instinct. Love is something you feel...Words (i.e. reason) are pointless. You either see (if there's something to be seen) what is buried deep in his eyes...or you don't see it. You either crave to lay him on a desk (or a bed, or a carpet, or whatever unusual spots you may find...intriguing! ) like a blotter...Or you just don't. "You know it and I know it"...Instinct. Yes, yes and yes...and though Maddie feels it, her practical demeanor desires verbal confirmation. We know Maddie is conflicted, she sorta seems to have a double personality; this ambivalence obviously emerges in the final sequence of IAC...M. What she's experiencing within herself is a war: Reason vs Instinct. Thought vs Flesh. And, if I might add, it is one of the most ancient conflicts a woman has to solve, within herself, by herself...for herself. Sooner or later, the answer must be found. Also, yes, women have more to lose (we feel) because women are held more accountable for our actions. Speaking of ML, Maddie is (mostly) Reason, David is (again, mostly) Instinct. They are totally the yin and yang, their joining perfects one another. Maddie and David "fill in each others blanks", lol ;D Great post IBM'r, loving this thread so much~thanks again to Gorky!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 1, 2009 16:50:52 GMT -5
Also, yes, women have more to lose (we feel) because women are held more accountable for our actions. Right-o, BUT ... I know guys who act MUCH MORE responsible than some girls. It's not all black & white. Gender does not always determine one's behavior. And speaking of David and Maddie...Who's the one who enquired about certain "safety" issues at the end of "To Heiress Human"? Maddie...or David? And above all, who (supposedly) did not do what had to be done and (again, supposedly) shamelessly lied to whom? I rest my case... Maddie and David "fill in each others blanks", lol ;D Yeah, they do that great... And I agree: SUPER gorky!!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 1, 2009 16:52:29 GMT -5
The moment where it really bothers me, though, is at the beginning of IAC...M, where Maddie confronts him--"How do you feel about me, David? How do you feel about all this, David?"--and he says nothing. Granted, Bruce plays that moment so brilliantly--you can see the tears in his eyes, the pain on his face--and it's a very Dave-like response, but it's still infuriating (from my perspective, as well as Maddie's). I think you said it perfectly: Maddie needs to hear those words. In the two years she's known him, he hasn't shown much interest in long-term relationships; she's looking for a committment--she tells him as much--and an "I love you" is just what the situation calls for. Brilliant indeed, the tears , wooooo, I get chills envisioning that moment. In that look Bruce/David says so much... words could never counteract that look! I understand about Maddie's frustration, yet, when you know someone like she knows David...Maddie should have apprehended ~that look, at that moment~ as his answer. David is actually offended because he feels Maddie should know better. David's tears, the look on his face, his body language shows his heartbreaking. Maddie, then, could have spoken verbally what she felt from David's non-verbal communication; if only "she could get over herself" (as one poster so amply expressed) . People communicate in different ways and when it comes to seriousness, David communicates non-verbally; that's why he feels he doesn't have to say anything.
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