gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 7, 2009 15:36:17 GMT -5
I never thought of David's zipped-lip thing as a way of allowing Maddie to make her own choice--I attributed it more to, like you say, his insecurity--but I think you're absolutely right, bees. David never wanted to goad Maddie into anything--into admitting her feelings, into choosing him, and, ultimately, into sleeping with him. I think his, "I'm not gonna force myself on you; I don't want to force myself on you" in IAC...M sums his attitude up nicely. I don't think Maddie's really acting like the kiss didn't happen--I just think she's implicitly questioning it's meaning. Just like "chasing her down the hall", kissing her was an action that--though indicitive of desire, want, love--doesn't tell her anything concrete. We were discussing it earlier, how Maddie needed to hear those three words; I think her behavior in the scene where she's discussing the proposal with David stays pretty true to that sentiment. And, really, I agree with her complaint that she "tells David everything, but he tells her nothing"--she poured her heart out to him in "Maddie's Turn to Cry". Their mutual "I 'hate' you"s, and that kiss--though very telling to us as an audience, and apparently to David--weren't enough for Maddie, because I think she'd come to understand that acting loving towards a person--*cough*Sham*cough*--isn't a sure sign of genuine affection. I agree with you that David is hurt and dumbfounded, but I really don't think Maddie's making such an unreasonable demand when she asks David how this all makes him feel. (Not saying that you think that, either, bees--I know you love Maddie as much as I do!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 7, 2009 20:40:11 GMT -5
Yes, gorky, I agree with your last post. I guess what I am trying to say about Maddie acting like the kiss on the trunk didn't happen is that it seems to me that David feels at least some of both of their cards are on the table at that point. At some point in that conversation in her office I think he feels she is dismissing it. I really need to watch it again because I can't tell you specifically what is said, but I don't want to because that scene kills me! It's while there is some overlapping dialog, I think!! It just seems like something MAddie would do. They dismissed the kiss in the garage and the "very Merry Christmas" kiss! But, I understand what you are saying. It goes back to her needing to hear from DAvid how he feels about her, even though she really already knows!
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Post by marple on Feb 7, 2009 22:51:20 GMT -5
Sorry for jumping in herecbut I think this is a very amazing scenec starts for the last burst, builds up tension between those two even if itfs painful to watch.
I think this scene is caused by difference of what each of them is dealing with at the point. They spent last night together and it was really lovely. Maddie finally showed her love for David, and David answered her. They seemed standing on the same page there. I think if Sam doesnft show up at David apartment, the things between D and M would go different. From Maddiefs point of view, she still has confusion, but also has a certain hope with David and itfs growing. She starts to smile when she finds David in her office. But what he first says is about Samfs proposal, and that he is just curious. I think this attitude must make her very angry. gWhy do you say about Sam instead of yourself?h And things go that way. I also think she really hangs tough here to ask what David means to her. From Davidfs point of view, I agree that he lets her make her decision by herself, he is concerned her happiness all the time and is happy because he feels she loves him, enjoying her present life with him. But Sam comes and says the awful things to him. Sam says gMaddie deserves betterh (what a arrogance!) instead of how he loves her. David gets to know that Sam is just another poster boy and he is sure, knowing Maddie very well, she will never be happy with Sam. So I think David goes to Maddie because he just doesnft want Maddie to marry Sham! The both state of minds are understandable to me. Just my thoughts.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 10:07:29 GMT -5
Don't be sorry Marple!! This is an old thread that has taken on a life of it's own!! Glad you jumped in! And you are right, Maddie is still confused!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 13:28:03 GMT -5
And, really, I agree with her complaint that she "tells David everything, but he tells her nothing"--she poured her heart out to him in "Maddie's Turn to Cry". Their mutual "I 'hate' you"s, and that kiss--though very telling to us as an audience, and apparently to David--weren't enough for Maddie, because I think she'd come to understand that acting loving towards a person--*cough*Sham*cough*--isn't a sure sign of genuine affection. Gorky, you said a mouthful especially "she'd (Maddie) come to understand that acting loving towards a person--*cough*Sham*cough*--isn't a sure sign of genuine affection" Maddie lived that and felt driven to understand her and David's relationship status. Maddie knew her thing with "Sham" was a scam. I agree with you that David is hurt and dumbfounded, but I really don't think Maddie's making such an unreasonable demand when she asks David how this all makes him feel. (Not saying that you think that, either, bees) Maddie is, as we also have discovered, aware consciously or unconsciously, that "Sham" hasn't said he loved her; funny, she never demanded that from him. Yet, she has to hear it from David to make sure that her love is requited. Maddie feels the need to know because she knows that if David says it, he means it!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 14:16:42 GMT -5
I think this scene is caused by difference of what each of them is dealing with at the point. They spent last night together and it was really lovely. Maddie finally showed her love for David, and David answered her. They seemed standing on the same page there. I think if Sam doesn't show up at David apartment, the things between D and M would go different. You are right Marple...because everything was so new, therefore unsteady...their relationship hadn't really been defined. So when Maddie didn't tell David about the proposal, which may have happened ultimately if she hadn't "cracked the case" at such an inopportune time. Any way, David is tripping because it's like, "OK, she comes to my house in the wee hours of the morning but never mentioned this (the proposal)...what else is she hiding? But what he first says is about Sams proposal, and that he is just curious. I think this attitude must make her very angry. Why do you say about Sam instead of yourself? Good point regarding David's preoccupation with Sham; Maddie always expressed how it was never about the guys interchangeably as a triangle. It was about Maddie and David or Maddie and Sam; the only common in this is Maddie, so she feels it's not their business. Also, I came in very late and saw your post so couldn't help but watch this episode... "She (Maddie) starts to smile when she finds David in her office. " Upon reviewing this, Maddie is totally open to why David is sitting in her office; she is definitely happy to see him. Maddie's expression changes abruptly based on David's facial expression then question. This is the time for David to play it cool as he usually does and not react. But Sam comes and says the awful things to him. Sam says Maddie deserves better (what a arrogance!) instead of how he loves her. ~Scoffs~ Need I say more? So I think David goes to Maddie because he just doesn't want Maddie to marry Sham! This point, maybe I don't fully understand...so I'll respond according to my understanding. Of course we know that David doesn't want Maddie to marry Sham due to the fact that David desires to be with Maddie himself. (Down the road) In FKL, David tells Mr. Hayes that he's basically decided he wants to spend the rest of his life with Maddie. Yet, the complications, which really begin at Sham's visit; adds to the already "gray" area that is David and Maddie's relationship.
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Post by jpen on Feb 8, 2009 14:18:23 GMT -5
I think this scene is caused by difference of what each of them is dealing with at the point. They spent last night together and it was really lovely. Maddie finally showed her love for David, and David answered her. They seemed standing on the same page there. I think if Sam doesnft show up at David apartment, the things between D and M would go different. Marple, I agree. On the trunk, Maddie and David seemed to have found a balance--each was putting him/herself out there equally. The smile on David's face when he says, "I hate you too...I've always hated you" is sweet and knowing; you can see a certain confidence in him that he is really the man for her. When Sam shows up, however, he capitalizes on all the surface reasons why David isn't right for Maddie ("I mean, look at this place..." etc.). It's as though he knows all of David's own insecurities. So when Maddie presses him to "speak now," I can almost see everything Sam said replaying in David's head...he starts questioning himself: "Maybe I'm not good enough...maybe I can't give her what she needs...maybe I should just 'back off'..." I do agree with bees also that there's an element of David not wanting to pressure Maddie--of wanting to make sure that she makes her own choice (though if he REALLY STRONGLY felt that way, he wouldn't have been in her bed at the end of IACM--he would've waited on the couch ), but I think the pain on his face is too evident to be mere selflessness.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 14:24:39 GMT -5
I guess what I am trying to say about Maddie acting like the kiss on the trunk didn't happen is that it seems to me that David feels at least some of both of their cards are on the table at that point. At some point in that conversation in her office I think he feels she is dismissing it. Bees, yes, this does happen during the overlapping dialogue as Maddie is telling David that it wouldn't matter if they discussed the proposal: David is saying, to paraphrase, it would matter and what about the night before and what was said (mostly with his body language because Maddie keeps cutting David off). After a minute, David shuts down emotionally, he's not willing to talk anymore because he feels that she feels nothing has changed between the two of them, so why put himself out there. Yet David's tears say so much, he's hurt because he thought their relationship had a breakthrough. I don't think Maddie is necessarily dismissing the kiss but Maddie and David are misunderstanding each others motives here. Usually things get really out of hand when there is a misunderstanding in communication.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 14:40:27 GMT -5
Maddie is, as we also have discovered, aware consciously or unconsciously, that "Sham" hasn't said he loved her; funny, she never demanded that from him. Yet, she has to hear it from David to make sure that her love is requited. Maddie feels the need to know because she knows that if David says it, he means it! I agree sinceifell!! It really does show that Maddie's heart belongs to David, too. She doesn't have the need at all to hear from Sham what she wants to hear from David. She knows David well enough to know that what the guy says, he usually means! And not just about relationships either. Think about all of the different types of conversations they have had!! Maddie knows David much better than she knows Sham at this point.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 14:44:35 GMT -5
The both state of minds are understandable to me. Just my thoughts. Yes Marple, I agree. These two are understandably in a holding pattern and just are simply to afraid......maybe to prideful?(is that even a word?!)....to take the steps needed to resolve their issues!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 14:53:14 GMT -5
When Sam shows up, however, he capitalizes on all the surface reasons why David isn't right for Maddie ("I mean, look at this place..." etc.). It's as though he knows all of David's own insecurities. So when Maddie presses him to "speak now," I can almost see everything Sam said replaying in David's head...he starts questioning himself: "Maybe I'm not good enough...maybe I can't give her what she needs...maybe I should just 'back off'..." I know jpen. I have often thought David's silence with Sham was because maybe he was agreeing with him. And I hate thinking that David would feel he is not good enough for Maddie!! But, it had occurred to me as well. But, there has been some discussion over that particular scene......commentary maybe, or an interview I read.....where Bruce wanted to play the scene like that because it makes Sham to be the weaker of the two. He blabs away while David comes across stronger because he sits there and takes it. It really is a great scene and Bruce plays it perfect......it does make ol' Sham sound ridiculous!!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 15:18:41 GMT -5
But, there has been some discussion over that particular scene......commentary maybe, or an interview I read.....where Bruce wanted to play the scene like that because it makes Sham to be the weaker of the two. He blabs away while David comes across stronger because he sits there and takes it. It really is a great scene and Bruce plays it perfect......it does make ol' Sham sound ridiculous!!! Bees, I heard this on the commentary as well and initially, years ago when I saw the actual scene...I felt that David appeared very strong and manly compared to "Sham" ... who is obviously desperate when he gets to Dave's house. Sham exudes desperation, that's why David appears so strong, David knows he's got him on the ropes...otherwise, why would Sham go to David directly to speak "man to man"? If Sham wasn't worried, as a matter of fact, he wasn't worried; he already knew that Maddie loved David because he's known her for a long time. Although he isn't familiar with the "new and improved" Maddie, he sees her core values have been altered. Sham told David that Maddie would have jumped on his "proposition", basically, if she didn't know David. Sham was threatened because David had succeeded where so many other men had failed (including himself); changing Maddie, making her softer in a way, more open to life's possibilities instead of always being so judgmental through calculating life choices.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 15:30:15 GMT -5
What is kind of funny, too, is that David has the big ol' bed-head, sleepy-head look and Shammy is standing there looking all tough and cool........David still comes out on top!! By my take of it anyway.....or maybe I just don't like Shammy......... ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 8, 2009 15:38:03 GMT -5
Bees, lol yes the bed head thing but David/Bruce is sexy from his innermost being, lol (I think so anyway) I don't know how cute people think "Sham" is...once he was trying to "break up" M & D, he wasn't so hunky to me...his pants are "quite tight" though LOL. I noticed "Shams" quite-ly tight-lyz , early this morning while reviewing...Maddie "don't want no" man with pants on tighter than hers, lol!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 8, 2009 15:44:53 GMT -5
He was....as Agnes would say.....Hunk City in the 80's. But I am like you. I didn't think so anymore when he showed up at Maddie's door! And I never liked the way he always would walk up on his toes!! Yeah, it does look like he wears whitey tighties!! (We are going to make graycav blush again!!)
Actually, Mark Harmon has aged nicely over the years. It is cool he has his own TV show and that you never hear anything negative about him. Just bad stuff about a character he played a mere 20+ years ago!! LOL!!
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