Post by haddie mayes on Oct 17, 2007 12:43:08 GMT -5
There`s something that`s been bugging me about that comment that David makes to Maddie about nobody knowing "not even the great Dipesto" about them sleeping together. Now if in-fact no one did know then how come both Bert and Agnes assumed that the baby was Davids and not Sams, because you would think given that they all knew Maddie was dating Sam Bert and Agnes would have guessed at Sam . Now that makes me think of a few reasons behind this One,David and Maddie`s secret liasions weren`t as secret as they thought, or maybe David had confided in either Bert or Agnes between A trip to the Moon and Cool Hand Dave. Because the only public display of affection and knowndate between the two of them that the office knew about prior to the news of Maddies pregnancy was the date that ended up in the laundry mat. Does anyone else have any theories behind this other than maybe Bert and Agnes just had a sneeky peek at some future scripts ;D
Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 17, 2007 14:24:18 GMT -5
Laura ~ I never thought about that before. But you may be on to something.
So, maybe sometime during "Tale in Two Cities" we can assume while Bert and David are carousing, that David tells Bert about "the relationship" ?
Or maybe Agnes, who always seems to know things that there is no way she should be able to know, just assumes that D&M have been intimate? Because Agnes, better than anyone, better than D&M even, know that D&M love each other.
Or maybe B&A assumed that D&M "did it" on that great date (that ended up in the Laundromat!)
Or maybe the writers didn't get their facts straight when they wrote this episode
I believe that Agnes and Bert knew something intense was up between their bosses. Back in Blonde on Blonde, Bert witnessed first hand David's reaction to Maddie going out on the town. And then in Sam and Dave he saw how distraught David was over the Sam thing. And in I am Curious Maddie...., Bert and Agnes had that long discussion over the card game where they discuss the dilemma of the bosses. After that, they saw first hand David's love declaration in Trip to the Moon and Maddie accepting his date invitation. So that sorta makes them an official couple.
In Come Back Little Shiksa when David gives Agnes the news about the date, she takes his word for it at first as he tells her he thinks mission accomplished in winning Maddie. And when Maddie leaves unexpectedly for Chicago, both Agnes and Bert see David crushed. Clearly something serious had been going on between the two of them for him to act that way....so when Agnes hears the message about the baby....she puts two and two together. Agnes may think that the paternity might be hazy...but her intuition and her optimism allows her to believe that the daddy is David.
We all know David is not the most discreet, so it is entirely possible he let Bert and Agnes know the whole story. I also think that you might be correct in it being a writer slip since we know that as time went on, there were more and more of these.
Great thoughts, everyone. Here's another one to add to the mix - the rip-roaring argument that David and Maddie have in her office in this episode. Did they really think that no one heard it? After all, think back to Sam and Dave when Maddie tells David that she was not going on the stake out with him, that he should take Mr. Viola with him. What do we hear? A great big "YAY" from Bert. Given that, can we assume that the entire office heard Maddie yelling at the top of her lungs something like "what do you want me to tell them? That we've been sleeping together?" Or even David's remark prior to that when he yells that he's very very happy, that he doesn't want to sleep with her and then, "alright, I like sleeping with you, but this isn't about that". I don't see how the wobblies could have missed that one.
I agree about the yelling in the office in TTTM. How could they not have heard them in the outer office . They sure were yelling LOUD LOL Also in CHD when Bert tells David he didnt just knock up anyone he knocked up the boss (OMG funniest scene!) David is like what? And then Bert says something about Agnes isn't going to be happy that he told him in so many words and David goes "Agnes knows?" like he's shocked. I always wondered what he meant. Did Diavid tell Bert they slept together and he realized Bert told Agnes or that he's shocked 2 people know Maddie's pregnant before David did? Ah things to wonder about. Glad to know i'm not the only one who over analyses this show
Post by haddie mayes on Oct 18, 2007 17:14:49 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for your input, and some of the points that were made have given me more food for thought. Lin212 has a very good point about the shouting inside the office and wether it could be heard by everyone in the outer office. Even the thickest doors couldn`t have muffled that row!! It just a real shame that we didn`t get to see much of those 4 weeks of bliss that David talks about. To go over again Davids reaction to Agnes knowing that was Maddies pregnant , he didn`t seem too suprised that Bert had practically put his name down as the father on the birth certificate but was totally shocked that Agnes knew . So maybe we have to assume that David did at some point either confide or let slip to Bert about his relationship with Maddie and just how far it had progressed. Or, or maybe we have to look at the conversation that Agnes had with David in` Come Back.... `and how she might have read between the lines in regards to just how well D and M`s date went the previous night. But then on the other foot surely even Agnes wouldn`t have been that naive to think that even if they had slept together on that particular date ( which we all know they didn`t ) tallying up the odds then the finger would have pointed at Sam still. But hey this all might just have been a writers hic-up and a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. I mean if they were sneeking around snatching moments wouldn`t it have been funny to have watched David and Maddie trying not to get caught in the act so to speak by any of the employees. But i have always thought that it was kinda romantic that the two closest people to Maddie and David just naturally assumed that any baby that Maddie was carrying would be the product of a union between these two people and Sam never entered Bert and Agnes`s mind as a possibility.
My take on the "Agnes knows?" question - I always interpreted that as David being surprised that Agnes knows Maddie is pregnant, basically that Bert and Agnes know before he does. But you are right, David does ask that question just after Bert tells him that he's knocked up the boss, so I can see how it could mean that he is questioning that Agnes knows that their relationship began before the date in the laundromat. lauraa, your last point about the two closest people to David and Maddie naturally assuming that David is the father brings me to another point that has always made me scratch my head. It really pertains to Father Knows Last, but I always wondered how Mr. Hayes determined that David was the father of Maddie's baby. As a matter of fact, there doesn't even seem to be one iota of doubt in his mind. Prior to his trip to LA, we never see any indication that he even suspected a romantic relationship between the two. Even Mrs. Hayes doesn't assume David is the father - she asks Maddie if David is the "either" or the "or". When Mr. Hayes asks David if he is in love with his daughter and David responds that he loves her very much, Mr. Hayes says that she's in love with him - how does he know that? It almost makes me wonder if there was a scene that was cut, maybe a heart to heart talk between father and daughter? There seems to be a missing link.
I wish we were able to see more of the month they were together too Laura. I would have loved to see the employees catch them in a comprimising position LOL Lin you are also right about Maddie's father just assuming David was the father right away. Maybe it's suspended belief we have to have that Maddie has talked ALOT about David to her parents by phone but she really wasnt very open like that with others so who knows, but also when she first arrives at her parents house and her dad asks about David and Maddie gets this look that her mother notices so her mom may have figured then something was up with her and David. Also didnt Agnes say to Maddie how she figured David /Maddie would get married to each other not different people in EAS i think. Agnes knew i guess from the start that M&D were going to end up together. I so wish it ended that way, in my head it did
Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 19, 2007 8:31:51 GMT -5
In season 4, I feel like either A) a lot was left on the cutting room floor that we never got to see, or B) there was a lot of suspension of disbelief and assumptions going on. Or C) the writers couldn't stay consistent to save their lives
I rewatched this episode this week, and I definitely think the short answer to the question of how does B&A know about D&M is simply, that huge fight in Maddie's office. There didn't even need to be anybody with his/her ear to the door (with a glass of course!) to hear that! I also think everyone else makes valid arguments that are more along the lines of circumstantial evidence, and those would all add up to something pretty serious between M&D. But that loud argument seals the deal.
I also rewatched CBLS (with the commentary, for the first time -- it was AWESOME) and I never realized just how much Maddie's mom picks up on when Maddie arrives home. The acting is tremendous. I really never got that Maddie's mom totally got that Maddie was running away from David. Think about it, when Sawyer ran off with all of Maddie's money, did she turn on her heels and run home to Mommy and Daddy? Nope. I think Virginia really gets just how significant it is that Maddie has come home, it has to be a pretty bad situation that she is running from. At first (because guys are oblivious -- sorry, boys, but most of you are!) Maddie's dad is just happy to see her. He is concerned too, but doesn't have a clue as to what is going on.
Post by haddie mayes on Oct 19, 2007 16:37:41 GMT -5
Just to add another twist to this . Does anybody think that it`s a possibility that Maddie may have spoken to Agnes about everything , i mean they had started to get pretty close and more sisterly. Even though bearing her soul and opening up to people wasn`t what Maddie would normally do , because Agnes pretty much understood their relationship better than anyone else plus working for David for quite some time she also knew him very well too and had been there from the get go. So maybe Maddie felt that she could confide in Agnes and ask for advice. It wouldn`t have been the first that the two of them had discussed men and relationships. So i think that Agnes knew about them sleeping together even before the formal date,and that David was wrong about Agnes not knowing .
I've pondered your question, lauraa, and somehow I don't think Maddie opened up to anyone. I think Agnes suspected - note her question to David - "Is there something going on between you two?" and the little smile, but I don't think she had a "heart to heart" talk with Maddie about this. David describes their month together as great, but I wonder. It seems that Maddie was fighting against herself the entire time based on HER description of the last 4 weeks (Every day I say that this is not going to happen again and somehow we end up together - my place, your place, the car, the walls are different, etc.). David seemed to be clueless as to how she was feeling. So, I somehow feel that Maddie wasn't ready or able to bring this relationship out into the light of day, even with Agnes (IMO).
Post by honeyblondenoggin on Oct 19, 2007 19:51:41 GMT -5
Lin ~ Typical David, only seeing things from his perspective. No matter how much Maddie fought him, they WERE together everynight, and to him that meant the relationship was going somewhere. Of course Maddie doesn't see things like that at all. Back to the topic at hand, though. I agree, I don't think Maddie had confided in Agnes, not about this. Sadly, I think Maddie was really, really embarrassed that this keeps happening. Hot and heavy is not the way she thinks a relationship should progress, and in her (misguided) mind, despite the previous three years of working together and being together every day, she feels like this is some sort of extended one-night-stand, and therefore would be too embarrassed to confide in Agnes.
Ahhhh, if Maddie could have only focused on just how great it was
I agree also Maddie wouldnt have confided in Agnes back then but did once she found out she was pregnant didnt she? David maybe would have confided to one of them but then in his speech in the office he says hes happy and just wants to be able to tell someone means he wants to share it with the world that he has this relationship with this woman, makes me believe he hasnt told anyone yet either. It does make you wonder about their month together, David did tell her father in FKL that they spent a great month together. Would Maddie say the month was great? I agree that in Maddies head she thought David was just there for the physical part and that was it. To her they were an affair. David even says tho her in this office yelling scene that shes embarrassed too and she is in a way cause she feels she has this image to uphold. I could go on and on with this show
Post by haddie mayes on Oct 20, 2007 12:35:04 GMT -5
Thanks guys for your views , isn`t great that we can toss theories around like this , i just have to keep reminding myself that it was a tv show and all scripted. ;D Your`re probably right though. I just thought that if Maddie felt that she could confide in Agnes about her pregnancy then maybe she might have done the same about the relationship. But then again when she made that phone call to spill the beans about the baby it`s possible by that stage in the game Maddie thought" what`s the point in trying to hide anything now , it`s all going to come out now anyway ". I know Glenn may have been trying to speed things up to get Cybill off screen before she started to show too much but surely we could have seen one or two episode of them being together . We never really saw Maddie happy at all at any time during the relationship. Surely after she had succumbed to David again at the end of To Heiress..... she must have been relatively comfortable being with David , like she said during the row " i don`t just give my self to people , i have to consider -contemplate "... Now in the car at the end it was her that came on to David with the kiss. Why would she have done that it if she hadn`t considered and contemplated . It wasn`t as if David was pushing any buttons that time .and Maddie clearly wasn`t caught up in the heat of the moment on this occasion . To me that was the actions of a clear headed woman who knew exactly what and who she wanted What made her feelings change from this to it being wrong and not working. Oh why oh why couldn`t have the writers given us a little peek at those 4 weeks.
lauraa, I also lament the fact that we see very little of Maddie happy in the relationship. There are just the brief moments at the end of IACM and THH - the only times she smiles at David and kisses him. I guess we also could include the end of And The Word Was Made Flesh and the dance scene in AWWAV, but still not nearly enough. The writers seemed to throw us a bone every once in a while, just to take it away again. Ugghhhhhhhhh.