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Post by rose35 on Sept 18, 2006 19:51:37 GMT -5
his having protection with him the night that he and Bert went out and met the girls at the bar and then went home with them and he also had enough with him that he offered Bert some also when he misunderstood Bert when he came out to tell David he wanted to leave. But when he was with Maddie those nights first few nights( and i believe the rest of the month they were together) he didn't come prepared with protection. Just a random thought. Any thoughts? (Hope no one is offended by this topic either)
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Post by lin212 on Sept 19, 2006 15:08:49 GMT -5
Interesting question, rose. I know why he was prepared the night he went out with Bert. He was on a mission. He was looking for a one night stand to get back at Maddie and to try to forget her. Obviously, it didn't work - the scene of David walking along the street afterwards says it all. He was sadder and lonelier than ever. As far as Maddie is concerned, that is a good question. Do you think he knew what was going to happen those nights - did he plan it or was it just spontaneous?
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Post by rose35 on Sept 19, 2006 19:52:35 GMT -5
Thanks for your views on this Lin, You are right , David knew what he intended to do. He needed to be with another woman to forget Maddie so he was prepared. And your right he felt worse after it happened with that woman. Your right also about he probably didn't expect that to happen with Maddie when it did. He sure wanted it to happen but he still thought Sam was in the picture. And when it did finally happen i think David felt Maddie was it for him, and Maddie told him she was takling care of it anyway. Gosh i love these discussions.
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Post by adyjdy on Sept 19, 2006 21:49:08 GMT -5
Interesting question, rose. I know why he was prepared the night he went out with Bert. He was on a mission. He was looking for a one night stand to get back at Maddie and to try to forget her. Obviously, it didn't work - the scene of David walking along the street afterwards says it all. He was sadder and lonelier than ever. Speaking of that scene where he gives some cash and his coat to that homeless guy... I have a hunch that his shedding his coat was meant to symbolize something... but I'm not sure what. Anyone have any ideas? Queensgirl, this would be a good one for you.
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Post by bluemoongirl on Sept 19, 2006 23:16:09 GMT -5
I agree that David was looking to get back at Maddie and therefore brought protection along... BUT here's the BIGGER issue...why didn't Maddie have any protection in her bedroom. She'd been with Sam for several days before. You mean to tell me that 'no nonsense - have to think everything through' Ms. Hayes wouldn't have protection. And Sam doesn't seem the type to take the risk either. So it begs the question... Maybe David didn't have any protection with him when he fell asleep in her bed. But I bet when he showed up on her doorstep a few days prior with flowers that there were some in that overcoat of his. And Maddie bold faced lied to him in the car about being on the pill. Why would Maddie do that unless she'd truly thrown caution to the wind. Loving this man had clouded her judgement enough to lie when she knew full well she would most likely get pregnant. It made for some sizzling episodes, but in the end was all a clever plot device to deal with impending real life situations for season 4. Maddie just didn't change in season 4. It started with To Heiress Human.
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Post by rose35 on Sept 20, 2006 19:39:30 GMT -5
Bluemoongirl. love your points also. You are right about thinking Sam would have been prepared. But if Maddie thought Sam was the father does that mean that he wasn't then prepared and she was taking care of it or so she thought. The pill fails if you miss a day or 2 right? Well maybe that's what happended. I can't imagine Maddie lying about being on the pill or something. Wish we knew for sure what the writers meant happened. Gosh it feels like i'm talking about real people here. Amazing to think it's just a tv show and how we are so attached to it.
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Post by bluemoongirl on Sept 20, 2006 21:39:42 GMT -5
I KNOW ;D And it's 20 YEARS later!! Go figure... But to get back to the issues here... I really do truly believe that all of this fell into place because of these facts: Season 3 began with the intention that these characters were going to become intimate. It was all leading up to The Big Bang. Cybill gets pregnant right before these eps are to be written and filmed. There were delays and complications for reasons we are all aware of. All of these factors put an unwanted, imho, spin on what was originally conceived for The Big Bang and subsequent storylines leadings into season 4. Therefore, plots twists, and characterization changes were made [ What is with this pact crap!] to accomodate what inevitably needed to happen later. I have come to the conclusion that if things weren't what they were at the time, that we would of had a completely different show in season 4. Maddie wouldn't have run home etc etc etc. This is why in some past threads we've talked about the what-if scenarios. We have what we have, and we can't change that now. But it sure would be nice to know what was intended for their relationship, and whether there would have been a baby at some point. And how all of it would have played out. We'll never know. But I'll say it again...we got what we got because of what happened 20 years ago. We can't go back...but we can imagine what would have been.
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Post by adyjdy on Sept 20, 2006 23:04:04 GMT -5
And Maddie bold faced lied to him in the car about being on the pill. Maybe I missed something, but why do you think she lied, bluemoongirl? I always thought that either the pill failed or she missed a couple of doses. Maybe I misunderstood your point. Please explain. You are right about thinking Sam would have been prepared. But if Maddie thought Sam was the father does that mean that he wasn't then prepared and she was taking care of it or so she thought. The pill fails if you miss a day or 2 right? Interesting points all! I always thought that the first night she slept with David she probably missed a pill (since you usually take them at night). Then, I imagined she missed a second pill the night they ended up in D's bed ("That spot on your neck" night) Missing one wouldn't have been a big deal, as long as she took it as soon as she realized AND then took the next pill at the right time the second day. HOWEVER, missing two in a row is dangerous territory. She had a very full schedule those two nights, so... I'll bet all my chips that that baby was conceived in the car the night they careened down the hill in "Heiress."
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Post by funkycat on Sept 21, 2006 3:01:23 GMT -5
Just adding my 2 cents worth on these matters for what it's worth!!! Firstly we are all assuming that Maddie was on the pill - but she may have had another form of birth control. As far as I recall she doesn't go into details with David but merely says something like "I take responsibility for my body" or something like that. Secondly, on the issue of David carrying a condom when he goes out with Bert, while I agree with those who think he was looking to get back at/forget Maddie by picking up a stranger there is a further consideration. Putting this issue in its correct historical and social context, this was the height of AIDS awareness in the mid '80's. The 'safe sex' message was very strongly being pushed and it would have been considered reckless in the extreme to have unprotected sex with a person whose sexual history you did not know. As far as the nights with Maddie were concerned David knew her very well and felt it was safe with her (from a life threatening disease point of view anyway!). Anyway I always figured that they were caught up in the throes of passion and too busy to bother about 'caution'!!!!
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Post by lin212 on Sept 21, 2006 15:49:11 GMT -5
I also got the impression that Maddie messed up somehow, that she honestly thought that she had everything under control when she first slept with David. I am having a problem with the timing of her pregnancy. Maddie says that she is a little under 5 months when she returns to LA. She has been in Chicago for 4-1/2 months which would mean that she got pregnant 2 weeks or so before she left. Since she had been with David for 4 weeks, it seems reasonable to assume that she did not get pregnant when with Sam or during the first days with David. That's what really frustrates me about the whole thing. If the writers made such a point of setting a clear time line for us, then how can Maddie declare that she is absolutely sure that the baby is Sam's. The timing just doesn't seem right to me.
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Post by bluemoongirl on Sept 21, 2006 19:15:35 GMT -5
And Maddie bold faced lied to him in the car about being on the pill. Maybe I missed something, but why do you think she lied, bluemoongirl? I always thought that either the pill failed or she missed a couple of doses. Maybe I misunderstood your point. Please explain. Well, it was no secret to us that Cybill was pregnant when these eps aired, and that it would be written into the storyline later. When I said 'protection' I never meant the pill. I meant condoms - from when she was with Sam. I really don't believe that Maddie would be on the pill. Yes, there is the arguement about the social conciousness at the time. And even though we know that Maddie has dated in the past, we also know that she rarely if ever has gone further than dinner for one reason or another. So I don't think she would have gone to that trouble. Therefore, in my mind, there was no issue of 'taking or missing the pill' when she slept with Sam or David. So to answer your question...In Heiress when David asks her about it, there is extreme sexual tension between them before and during this conversation. And I think Maddie is slightly thrown by the question, and answers the way she does to asuage David's fears knowing full well that there was a huge chance. And as funkycat stated...David knew it would be safe with her. He just figured she was on the pill because she told him she'd 'taken care of it'. Just my spin on the whole thing.
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Post by adyjdy on Sept 21, 2006 22:19:15 GMT -5
But then immediately after this discussion they go at again in the car? Presumably her knowing is isn't safe, and him thinking it is... I don't know that sounds pretty underhanded even for S4 Maddie. Unless she was looking to get pregnant.
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Post by lin212 on Sept 22, 2006 6:59:36 GMT -5
To take your point further, adyjdy, if Maddie led David to believe that she was on the pill or had taken care of birth control in some other fashion, then David never would have used protection during the month they were together. Why would he if he thought that she had taken care of everything? And how would she tell him that he should use something when she told him it was OK? She really would have to back pedal on that one.
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Post by bluemoongirl on Sept 22, 2006 14:07:54 GMT -5
The problem with all this is that we're the ones who are trying to rationalize these characters actions. We know what we were told 20 years ago about the status behind the scenes, but we don't really know what was going on, or what was in the minds of the producers and writers. We know things went wrong during season 4. My rationalizing for Heiress, Maddie's backpedaling with the 'pact', and her ambivilance in ATTM is a direct result of the fact that she was going to have to be gone from the show. I think everyone was scrambling to come up with ideas, and they didn't come up with the best ones. But they're hands were tied with the pregnancy complications. What else could they do. We ended up with a frustrating season. We can try to make sense all we want, but I think it's kinda impossible.
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Johanna
3rd Level
Stranger who? Stranger me? They don't get any stranger...
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Post by Johanna on Sept 22, 2006 15:23:50 GMT -5
I always thought that Maddie was 'taking care of it' and that whatever birth control she used didn't work. It can happen with any kind of protection. I think the reason he didn't come 'dressed for the party' was that he never expected 'a party' :)since he knew Maddie was kind of a moody person, and always wanted to think things through . I'd say that things are more likely to happen when you don't expect them.
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