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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 21:30:23 GMT -5
Moonbeemer I agree with what you are saying about suspending our beliefs, etc.. I think we do that to some extent in our own dreams and this was the way the writers got around what was really real and what was not so real. So we would buy into Maddie's revelations at the end of the episode. Great questions!! I am definitely an "enquiring mind" and it has always really bugged me that they chose to let Maddie lay a big one on David and then completely ignore it.....like the entire show was a dream sequence!! I am like gray---I liked it a lot---- but where did this go in future eps??? Agree and agree, especially about the kiss. It actually bugs me that they never deal with it later--or the one in "Straight Poop" (which I understand was supposed to be such a "meta" episode that nothing was required to seem real). Ah well, as we know, continuity was not always a top priority for ML!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 16, 2008 21:40:06 GMT -5
5) I think all the vignettes were revelations to Maddie in different ways and to cumulative effect. The Agnes scenario made Maddie see herself through an employee perspective, the one with David (& "that's Cheryl Tiegs!," ;D) made her acknowledge her attraction to David/the importance of his opinion of & feelings for her (or at least what she’d like them to be), and the last with her alternate self (perhaps the most poignant) shined the final light on what a savior Blue Moon and its people truly are to both the financial and social aspects of her life.
6) Upon first listen, the “if people are meant to be together…” quote might initially sound unMaddie-like, but in hindsight, it fits her character – while she may not be a religious person per se, she has a belief that there's a certain order to the universe, almost bordering on fate.
7) Favorite scene? Hmmm, I really liked so much about this episode and it was a real tour de force for Cybill (also, kudos are due for the casting of Alfred). The scene her dad teleinforms her that the Aunt died/berates her for not visiting really stung me. The bits of the vignettes I mentioned obviously stuck out, especially the one that takes place in the car - that was exceptionally provocative. And of course the final scene ties everything together beautifully.
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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 21:42:39 GMT -5
5. Which vignette: My first impulse was to say the David scene, where she's so distraught that none of the memories they've created actually happened, and he can't see or hear her--their connection is severed. But on reflection, I think it's the sum of the whole: the Agnes scene shows Maddie her tendency to prioritize the head over the heart, taken to the extreme; the David scene shows her what she's lost there; and the scene in the bar pulls it all together: a broken, lonely woman, with no friends and no money.
BTW, I think one of the things that's so devastating to Maddie about her alter-ego's fate is her loneliness and aloneness. As we talked about in MWCW, Maddie is lonely, and probably was much more so before she had David, Agnes, Bert, etc. in her life. So again, the vision of that possibility taken to the extreme is very scary for her.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Dec 16, 2008 21:56:41 GMT -5
I pulled this quote from another thread, but it shows why this episode is so close to my heart:
One of my favorites, probably because at the time I really could identify with the situation Maddie was in. The office (actually a military unit, but I'll keep the comparisons generic) was in an upheaval as well with a number of personnel moves, some good, some not so. There was an increasing number of deadlines that was crushing our ability to maintain quality and sanity in equal measures.
I was at the point where I was going to have to cancel some well deserved leave for a number of folks when this episode aired. It could not have come at a better time. I decided to let the folks take their leave. On Christmas afternoon I went into work, only to find several other Joes like me, some I had even granted leave to, toiling away. They said they would never leave me in a bind, and wanted me to know that since I thought of THEM and did not stifle their leave, they thought of ME and decided to spend some of that precious time with me, in a cold compound, preparing for an inspection.
Oh yea, we aced that inspection. I will never forget that time, or this episode. I feel almost touched enough to insert an emoticon.......nah!
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 16, 2008 22:00:15 GMT -5
6) Upon first listen, the “if people are meant to be together…” quote might initially sound unMaddie-like, but in hindsight, it fits her character – while she may not be a religious person per se, she has a belief that there's a certain order to the universe, almost bordering on fate. A good correlation to her religious beliefs moonbeemer, whatever they may be!!
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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 22:00:21 GMT -5
6. "If people are meant to be together, they'll find each other": agree with the other responses that this doesn't sound like Maddie at first...but deep down, she really is a romantic. Also, I think the response is appropriate given the context--she is grasping at straws here, wanting to believe that somehow, she and David can and will be together, in spite of her decision to close Blue Moon. And in the "real" ML world, I think this belief holds true as well, even through Sam, Chicago, Walter, losing the baby, and Annie (well...that one's a tough test! ).
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 16, 2008 22:07:09 GMT -5
Gray
That is a really cool story!!
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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 22:11:30 GMT -5
....Almost forgot: this is apropos of absolutely nothing, but I love Maddie's hair in this episode-it's looser and softer than usual. And she breaks my heart every time she tears up--not even the actual crying, just the tears gathering in her eyes...masterful!
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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 22:19:02 GMT -5
Gray-- Thanks for sharing...I teared up again reading your story! And what a great parallel--reminds me of David's point to Maddie: "A favor is something you ask." Also a good reminder...so much of the time we feel like we don't have a choice (Maddie feels like she has to get the Hamilton stuff done on time); but in reality, we always do.
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 16, 2008 22:20:06 GMT -5
Moonbeemer...great Q's. b: This lines up with my feeling that Maddie was made to be the heavy here for no good reason. Thank you, graycav and Moonbeemer! I was feeling the same way as I watched this today. The opening scene, where she's fallen asleep with papers in her arms (and all over her bed--there's a poignant metaphor for you!!), and then tells her mother, "I've only gotten a few hours' sleep", makes it very clear how hard she is willing to work to make this business successful. And part of the reason she works so hard is so her employees (who are often treated like/referred to as her and David's "children") have a paycheck...in spite of the fact that they are sometimes NOT working very hard. Now, of course, Maddie has some things to learn about finding balance in her life...there's truth in David's shot at her ("Just remember, a good job doesn't love you back")--but she's by no means a Scrooge. IMO. That is a really great line and comment and I think it all goes back to what Gray said last week about Maddie equating happiness with material things (look at the example she had growing up after all - and it sounds as if Alex was a workaholic himself). That really shed some light on Maddie's mindset for me and you tying "the kids" into it was something I hadn't factored in before either. This is such an educational forum. ;D
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 16, 2008 22:24:33 GMT -5
Gray-- Thanks for sharing...I teared up again reading your story! And what a great parallel--reminds me of David's point to Maddie: "A favor is something you ask." Also a good reminder...so much of the time we feel like we don't have a choice (Maddie feels like she has to get the Hamilton stuff done on time); but in reality, we always do. Same here (although I missed the MWCW thread, so thanks for calling that to attention, Gray - quite a story).
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Post by jpen on Dec 16, 2008 22:31:56 GMT -5
This is such an educational forum. ;D Yep, learn something new every day here, don't we?
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Dec 16, 2008 22:36:15 GMT -5
I must say I absolutely love this Tuesday night get together. I will be out of town next week, so if we do this I will not be able to play.
I have to jump for now gang, but will check things tomorrow for a wrap up, and to see if we really did get the historical question right.
If I don't type at you before then...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL...AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!!
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Post by MoonBeemer on Dec 16, 2008 22:51:43 GMT -5
I must say I absolutely love this Tuesday night get together. I will be out of town next week, so if we do this I will not be able to play. I have to jump for now gang, but will check things tomorrow for a wrap up, and to see if we really did get the historical question right. If I don't type at you before then...MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL...AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!! Ditto on all. Oh, and did we ever figure out the answer to Bees question from last week about the prop that appeared in every scene of Twas the Episode Before Christmas? Night all!
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Post by jpen on Dec 17, 2008 0:22:26 GMT -5
Can I just throw this out there...does anyone think that David should have defended Maddie during (or after) the Maddie v. MacGillicudy/Wobblies showdown? In my mind, though his feelings might be understandable, MacGillicudy's words were insubordinate and disrespectful. It's funny...I could almost hear David saying, "Don't you talk to your mother like that" (see my earlier post re Wobblies=children) after she walks out the door. And do you think his failure to stand up for her in front of them (being "on their side" in her office is, I think, different), is what makes her wish her wish ?
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