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Post by lin212 on Dec 17, 2008 7:57:32 GMT -5
Just checking in this morning to see what all happened after I hit the hay last night - so many insightful comments. Gray, what a truly wonderful story. Thanks so much for sharing it. We will miss you next week. MoonBeemer - about the prop - yes, it is the candy cane in David's pocket. I guess he really must have a thing for them since he starts off this episode with one too. Jpen, your question about whether or not David should have defended Maddie (even though he didn't agree with her), makes me wonder what happened after Maddie left the office. After all, when Maddie comes back, David, MacGillicuddy and Agnes are there full of apologies. We know that they found out about her Aunt Ruth, but I can just imagine David getting all the kids together and rallying the troops. That would have been a great scene!
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Post by jpen on Dec 17, 2008 10:35:49 GMT -5
Lin, I like your idea of him rallying the troops...wish we could've seen that!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 17, 2008 15:46:05 GMT -5
Hey kids! Just jumping in to say: GREAT JOB!!! ;D I'm a little envious, I have to admit......I wanted to be here last night!!!!! GRRRR.... Anyway, I'll be able to post my comments tomorrow, cross my heart!! In the meantime, I wished to gift my ML friends some pics from IAWJ! BTW, the last scene has been screen-captured frame per frame......Crazy ML shippers out there, unleash yourselves!! ;D (Nr. 860 is my personal favorite! You can find the link to the Photo gallery in the "Season 3 Screencaps" thread. See you tomorrow!! P.S. graycav, you're simply the best!! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU, TOO!!!!!!
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 17, 2008 21:50:36 GMT -5
Can I just throw this out there...does anyone think that David should have defended Maddie during (or after) the Maddie v. MacGillicudy/Wobblies showdown? In my mind, though his feelings might be understandable, MacGillicudy's words were insubordinate and disrespectful. It's funny...I could almost hear David saying, "Don't you talk to your mother like that" (see my earlier post re Wobblies=children) after she walks out the door. And do you think his failure to stand up for her in front of them (being "on their side" in her office is, I think, different), is what makes her wish her wish ? Maybe he was afraid to say anything that sounded like he was trying to defend her because he was afraid that Maddie would interpret this as her not being able to fend for herself? But, the look on his face looks like they were playing it like he agreed with the wobblies and their insubordination. Now having said that, I do think his not saying anything at all probably spurred her on more to say she wished she had never left Blue Moon open. She was hurt that he didn't, yet I could see her telling him to "stuff it Addison, I'm the boss and I can handle the children"!!!! And now having said that.....I do wish he had said something.
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Post by diane on Dec 17, 2008 22:38:53 GMT -5
I've got to compliment everybody on the wonderful job they did on the "Wonderful Job" questions. A couple of you really were spot on as to what my responses might be, so I won't belabor too much.
1. At first thought, the idea of Maddie Hayes ever contemplating suicide seems almost unbelievable. What is your reaction to the whole concept, and what kind of a job do you think they did in pulling it off?
I'm right in there with Gray......in fact, in spite of the fact that I have watched this innumerable times, I think the first time I realized that Albert thought she was seriously contemplating suicide was about a year ago....(no flies on me!). But by the end of the episode, I was fully convinced the person that Maddie had become without Blue Moon et al would have certainly headed that car towards a brick wall.
2. For those of you who know "It's a Wonderful Life", do you feel the episode is reflective of the movie, or is it just the use of the tilte that makes it memorable?
Again, first I just loved the title. But Maddie is a George Bailey.........lost opportunities, unable to see how many people she can affect, and who will love and respect her for it. I am still however, waiting for the bell to ring...although I guess Albert, unlike Clarence, wasn't waiting for his wings.
3. In spite of seeming to give up, where do you think Maddie shows her strength in this episode?
Strength galore.......she fights her sadness and mourning, she fights back when Magillicuddy challenges her...and most especially, when she realizes she is going to lose all she has gained she fights to have Albert help her to hold onto her life!
4. Pop quiz...... what ML historical inaccuracy is found in this episode?
Good job, folks! If Maddie had never kept the agency open, there never would have been a Blue Moon Detective Agency, and Lionel Standish would have looked at her like she was nutty!
5. Which one of the vignettes of life without Blue Moon makes the largest impression on Maddie...or is it the sum of the whole?
I think she is more affected by the vignette about Agnes, because she sees herself without blinders. She knows how lovely and sweet Agnes is, and draws the parallel.......I get a big pain in the heart when she sadly admits...."This is me."
The scene between David and Richie is sweet also, especailly when Maddie tries to get through to David about what they have shared......but I am not so much in love with the whole Cheryl Tiegs piece.
6. "if people are meant to be together, they'll find each other...no matter where, no matter how." Does this really sound like Maddie?
In spite of all evidence to the contrary, I think this quote is 100% Maddie. Bees did a great job of explaining Maddie as the career woman of the 80s........and for those of us who lived those days (agewise, I was smack dab in the middle of David and Maddie), it was hard. We were still earnings lots of the rights that you younguns take for granted, and it wasn't always easy. I have a 20 year old magnet on my refrigerator that says "A career woman has to look like a lady, act like a man, and work like a dog."
That said, I truly do believe that Maddie is a good and loving person, and most definitely is hopeful enough to use the episode quote as her mantra.
7. Quite simply, what's your favorite scene?
My favorite scene is in the car, when she works to wrest control of her life back from fate. If you want more info on my point of view, it is on the "Maddie Hayes" page of the site.
By the by, I have a special soft spot for the "angel trick"......I can't tell you how many people I have described that scene to...and yes, it happens to me at least a couple times a week too......even more now 20 years later!
This was fun. Thanks for humoring me and discussing my favorite!!!
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Post by marple on Dec 18, 2008 1:43:07 GMT -5
Wow... What a great discussion! I feel like Ifm late, but Ifd like to add my feelings for this wonderful episode. Many times I feel for Maddie in her miserable condition whether it is caused by herself or other things. In this episode she is excessively tired and miserable from the beginning, and I think all the stafffs cold reaction toward her makes her want to throw EVRYTHING away. Sure suicide is not her option, but I think she is tired to death. She escapes to a bar and gets into a dream, which looks like a nightmare to me, but I think finally Albert has done a great job. He invites Maddie to a wonderful dream! Because I think Maddie finally hears her heart when she cries gI MISS DAVID!h This is absolutely my most favorite scene. I think she is impressed by Davidfs comment gShe was a special girl.h She must be moved and start to wonder where her life is, feeling slightly regret. Watching that awful scene in the president Agnes room, she must also start to wonder if her order of priority is right or not, and realizes how she loves Blue Moon and the people with her just the way they are. I love the scene she apologizes to David, Agnes and Magillicuddy in her beautiful tears. As everyone has already said, I think Maddie shows her strength when she firmly asks Albert to get her life back in the car. It seems an impossible order after everything has been shown, but Maddie does. IMHO she usually shows her strength and guts at the eleventh hour. She is brave and never gives up then, and I love it. (I miss it in S4 and especially in S5) Anyway I love this wonderful episode and I enjoyed all the comments of you all! Itfs really fun to read and educational. Thank you all! I have to say I'm still waiting for the bell to ring, too!
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Post by beesnbears on Dec 18, 2008 10:19:17 GMT -5
"My favorite scene is in the car, when she works to wrest control of her life back from fate. If you want more info on my point of view, it is on the "Maddie Hayes" page of the site." dianedavidandmaddie.com/maddie.htmEverybody needs to read this page!! We have really discussed Maddie a lot in the last month and this page is wonderful. I had read this a long time ago and forgotten about it. ....so this is your reading assignment!! LOL!!!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 15:31:30 GMT -5
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas Ev'rywhere you go Take a look in the five-and-ten, Glistening once again With candy canes and silver lanes aglow!
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas Toys in ev'ry store But the prettiest sight to see is the holly that will be On your own front door!!! Ho - Ho - Ho, ML fans!! Here I am, like I promised, ready to share my thoughts on this Wonderful Episode! 1. At first thought, the idea of Maddie Hayes ever contemplating suicide seems almost unbelievable. What is your reaction to the whole concept, and what kind of a job do you think they did in pulling it off?The rooftop scene: I agree with those who believe Maddie wasn't contemplating suicide at this point. She just needed to be alone to deal with her loss and with the knowledge of having disappointed her parents. She was probably thinking: "My aunt is dead. Mother and father were counting on me, but I didn't show up at the hospital, because I had more pressing business to attend to. I made a big mistake, and there's no turning back. Aunt Ruth is dead, I'm never gonna see her again. She died all alone, and I was four blocks away. I'm guilty, guilty guilty. Bracers are corroding my bowels....Then why do I still feel so numb?" Then, she looks down.........When your heart is filled with positive feelings (love, ambition, hope) you look at the horizon, your chin up and a spring in your step. But when you're depressed, well, you just wallow in your grief and all you want to do is drown in your tears. You feel like you've hit rock bottom. Nothing matters anymore. You just have to make the last step toward oblivion. That's normal: that's human! I think Maddie limits herself to thinking all of this......the first time. The car smash: The AU Maddie isn't so far-seeing. And I can't blame her. No money, no friends, but most of all, no dignity left. What to live for? Life becomes meaningless. Loneliness and despair so deep-rooted they suck up her lifeforce away. All she can do is vegetate in a bar, at Christmas eve, lost in her feelings of worthlessness and unaccomplishment. Once again, we're shown that David and the agency are her life. And, IMO, David is the one who saved her. Hadn't he insisted so much on going into business with Maddie (see The Pilot), she never would have kept City Of Angels/Blue Moon open. She wouldn't have caught the right train. She wouldn't have been able to open up her heart to life and discover the joys of friendship and true love. Maybe the final scene of this episode is her way to say: "Thank you, David".... Attagirl!! ;D
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 15:51:58 GMT -5
2. For those of you who know "It's a Wonderful Life", do you feel the episode is reflective of the movie, or is it just the use of the tilte that makes it memorable?"It's A Wonderful Life" is one of the best movies in Cinema History! Yes, I definitely think the episode winks at it. BTW....... I screen captured a veeeery intriguing pic from the movie. It's from the sequence where George Bailey roams the streets of Pottersville..... Sorry about the poor quality, I don't own the dvd (just the tape) and couldn't find a better streaming video.... A coincidence? Nah! P.S. As you can see, I have a weakness for screen capturing.... Make some room in your hard disks, troops, there will be no rest for Miss "Grab 'em and Post 'em" !!! ;D
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 16:21:22 GMT -5
3. In spite of seeming to give up, where do you think Maddie shows her strength in this episode?When she pleads Albert to get her back to her old life. She says authoritatively: "Albert, stop all of this." Then: "Uncast it!" She has an epiphany: her life is wonderful! She has friends, memories and the future! No problem is too big, whilst there's life, there's hope!!! ;D We all have time to fix our mistakes and swap apologies. Never drop by the wayside!!! ;D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Pop quiz...... what ML historical inaccuracy is found in this episode?Yeah, The City Of Angels/Blue Moon thing! I didn't realize it the first time I watched the episode, though..... About "Hart to Hart": Italian television is flooded by reruns! It cannot be compared to our show!! That series is sooooooo boring!!!!! IMO, of course!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 17:29:21 GMT -5
5. Which one of the vignettes of life without Blue Moon makes the largest impression on Maddie...or is it the sum of the whole?It's the sum of the whole, IMO. 1 - The Agnes vignette: this is an exaggeration of Maddie's attitude toward her job and the people who work for her. We are incapable of seeing our flaws such as they are, we need to see them bigger and more twisted than they actually are. This is where Maddie starts changing. She acknowledges all those precious secrets that help us live in step with people.... "You don't have to be heartless to run a business." "You don't have to be manipulative to get people to do what you want."I keep these teachings deep inside my heart. Besides, I jump off my seat whenever Maddie says: "You two love each other. You just don't know it yet." ..... And then she keeps saying: "Come on, tell him!" Maddie Maddie Maddie, why do you suppress your feelings so much? Luckily, she gets her brain in gear, at last............. 2 - The David vignette: Oh my, how I love this sequence! Without Maddie, David id condemned to a life of shallowness. Cheryl Tiegs......YUCK! Beauty with no substance. Greediness and no Love. David knew since the beginning Maddie was special. He felt they were made for each other and that one could not do without the other. Maddie, on the other hand, can see his heart from a priviledged position. There they are, David's feelings, laid bare in front of her. He'd never be able to speak those words to her face! Maddie is struck by his sincerity, and from the moment David says: " I really admired her, she had this softness about her, this warmth......She was a really special girl ", she starts seeing him with a different set of eyes. Then, when Albert tells her the past has been erased, Maddie gets distraught. That very moment she can feel what she's just lost: her chance at happiness. However, it is not until her "death" that she finally realizes her life is the "right" one. She had to keep the agency open, and she did it. David was meant to be his partner, and so it happened. Everything is going to be just fine. She's on the right path.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 18:00:43 GMT -5
6. "if people are meant to be together, they'll find each other...no matter where, no matter how." Does this really sound like Maddie?This is the Maddie we know, like every fellow ML fan said before me. From what Maddie's just assisted: a - David is going to be miserable without her; b - Maddie is going to die without him! Therefore, they're meant to be together!! ;D This is the second epiphany Maddie has (the first one is in the Agnes vignette, and it's about her). An important one. That sentence sums up her unspoken feelings toward David, it finally brings order to the mish-mash of emotions, hints, fears, doubts she has about the two of them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. Quite simply, what's your favorite scene?Need to ask? The desk scene!!!! ;D ;D ;D Yo, Maddie!! Who's laying whom across a desk like a blotter this time, huh? I don't wear pumps, but in this case I may make an exception..... Hmm, I don't think Maddie would agree, though..... GOOD GIRL!! ;D This was fun!!! ;D Thanks y'all for the great great discussion!! I only wish I could have joined you...... That's alright, we have so many eps to rewatch together!! Ta-ta!!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Dec 18, 2008 19:34:43 GMT -5
Hello again! Since I can't sleep (too much blood in my caffeine system! ;D) and since I can't get enough of this board, I figured I'd stick around and answer the questions you added! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hot damn!" HA! I love the way Cybill says it, too! So that's the Memphis accent, huh? Cool!! Cybill did such a great job in this episode!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moonbeemera ) Does anyone really believe that David would just let Maddie leave the office so upset?Yes, I do believe it because Dave was taking the wobblies' side. He didn't know her aunt had just died......If he had known, he surely would've intervened. b) Granted her approach probably could've been better, but was it really all that unreasonable of Maddie to expect the employees to work some of Christmas week (the holiday excluded) to fulfill the needs of the agency? I mean, how many folks here get a whole week off at Christmas?Yes, it was unreasonable!! Christmas is sacred! Everyone should be with their families on this special day. c) Maddie… getting smashed at a bar…of her on volition???Sure, she always drinks when she gets confused or depressed. I you're interested in the subject, I recommend you this page: www.davidandmaddie.com/bar.htme) Now David might make some fourth wall excuse about limited footage being available, but it’s interesting that Maddie’s life flashing before her eyes consisted mostly of David…this indicates that she did very little living before he came into her life and/or her feelings for him are even greater than she pretends not to let on. Also, it’s odd that Richie made the cut, yet Sam and Annie were nowhere to be seen...Exactly!! David is her lifeline!! f) Not that I’m complaining, but I find it hard to believe that Maddie would pin David to a Wobblie desk, especially with other Wobblies present and at such a preliminary stage in M&D’s relationship. Furthermore, what exactly happened after that clinch…and why was there nere a mention of it ever again? Enquiring minds want to know!I don't find it hard to believe. That is Maddie for: "I love you, David! My savior, my Prince Charming! We're meant to be together, now I know that! Now I'm saving you from the clutches of Cheryl Tiegs, that poster, that red dressed minx!" ;D Fervid imagination, isn't it? Besides, check out the last sequence of "It's A Wonderful Life". It happens the same thing. Maddie is so relieved everything turned back to normal......All she wants to do is hold in her arms the one who loves and admires her so. What happened after the clinch? Who knows! I think those kisses were big steps toward the winning goal.....D&M don't get to express their mutual feelings until IACM. It's just the way it is! Oh, it's 1:45 a.m. in Italy......Sooooo.......I can say THIS: AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!! LOL! I was looking forward to this!! ;D
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Post by sandra on Jan 6, 2011 16:54:22 GMT -5
I'll jump in on a few questions. 1. At first thought, the idea of Maddie Hayes ever contemplating suicide seems almost unbelievable. What is your reaction to the whole concept, and what kind of a job do you think they did in pulling it off?I'm not quite sure which situation you refer to - the situation on the roof or with the car crash? I think, on the roof, Maddie didn't contemplate seriously suicide. As for the car crash... well, her life had become empty and desperate, and as she doesn't have religious qualms about suicide either, it could be possible. 3. In spite of seeming to give up, where do you think Maddie shows her strength in this episode?Maybe the most strength she needed (and showed) when after having seen both vignettes about Agnes and David, when Albert gave her a last chance to turn everything as it was, she said no and was prepared to deal with whatever was to come. Or was it just foolish pride? Not to admit she had been wrong? Hmmm... Her fighting in the end was very powerful, of course (trying to convince Albert to call off everything and turn it as it was). Great acting of Cybill BTW throughout the whole ep! 5. Which one of the vignettes of life without Blue Moon makes the largest impression on Maddie...or is it the sum of the whole?I really think it is the sum of both. Seeing Agnes as the bitchy lady boss (looked gorgeous, BTW, and I LMAO because of the "Dynasty" music playing in that scene) was a very painful revelation for her, like looking in a mirror (though Maddie isn't - and never was - that bad! Give credit where credit is due!). And of course it cut her like a knife when she realized that the two years with David had never happened, and when she realized that even at their very first, though unpleasant meeting, David was very impressed by her and seemed to see something that laid beneath the surface. 6. "if people are meant to be together, they'll find each other...no matter where, no matter how." Does this really sound like Maddie?Absolutely. On the one hand, she doesn't believe in fate, god, but on the other hand, she strongly believes in romance. Yes, this is definitely Maddie's way of thinking to me. 7. Quite simply, what's your favorite scene?I have two. I really love the scene in Agnes's office, when it struck Maddie "This isn't you. This is... me!" and of course the moment she tries get trough to Agnes: "You love each other, you just don't know it yet! You love him! Tell him!" But call me crazy, I don't think in this moment she relates that to her own denial about her love for David! Ah, and just a note: doesn't Curtis look really handsome in this scene? Well, my other favorite scene is the final scene of course, but not because of the kiss! ...allright, not only because of the kiss, okay? I love the mutual apologizing and the group embrace. Very sweet. I remember when I first saw this ep, or the following ones, I was very upset about ignoring completely this kiss, I thought "Wait a minute, what's going on here?" But now, having become wiser with the years... ;D Well, you gotta accept the dog's limitations, right? And what would be ML without that craziness we love so much? But now to all a good night!
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Post by bluemoonshampoo on Feb 7, 2011 10:26:57 GMT -5
I'll jump in on a few questions. 1. At first thought, the idea of Maddie Hayes ever contemplating suicide seems almost unbelievable. What is your reaction to the whole concept, and what kind of a job do you think they did in pulling it off?I'm not quite sure which situation you refer to - the situation on the roof or with the car crash? I think, on the roof, Maddie didn't contemplate seriously suicide. As for the car crash... well, her life had become empty and desperate, and as she doesn't have religious qualms about suicide either, it could be possible. * D'you know Sandra, I'm inclined to agree. I know we all know her as the head strong gal but we haven't seen her in a situation where she has nothing left...and she is such a thinker so it is possible she could feel that bad.
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