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Post by jpen on Apr 21, 2009 17:03:24 GMT -5
As Gray mentioned, there are some pretty widely-varying opinions on this eppy, so let's start the fun! As always, feel free to throw your own questions into the ring... 1. At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrante Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark? 2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! ;D) 3. Maddie's angst is pretty palpable from the moment she sits up in bed. What have these past weeks meant (or revealed) to her? How does her view of their relationship reflect her personality? 4. "I feel empty inside!": Is this really how Maddie feels? Or is David right--that she just won't let herself be happy? 5. What does David mean when he says, "You won't commit!" What do you think David is looking for from the relationship at this point? Is Maddie afraid to commit to him, or is she afraid that David can't/won't commit...or does her "sadness" have nothing to do with commitment? 6. How do you feel about David's declaration to the staff? 7. Dr. Joyce Brothers and Ray Charles: Genius or Gimmick? 8. And now for a little speculation...Maddie tells David she loves him in the laundromat. Do you think this is the first time she's said it (not counting the "goodbye grope" speech)? And putting real-life logistics aside, was there anything David could have said or done in this scene to make her stay? 9. Overall, are David and Maddie's actions and reactions in this episode true to their characters as we have come to know them in Seasons 1-3? 10. Just for fun (and meaning no disrespect to our male colleagues): IMO, David is lookin' pretty fine in this episode. What's your favorite shot of him here? 11. And finally...What is the DEAL with the six-minute set piece "David v. the Invisible Prowler"? Prizes will be awarded for any explanation that makes this scene plausible within the context of the episode... P.S. Thanks to rose and bees for help with the questions!
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Post by diane on Apr 21, 2009 17:35:06 GMT -5
1. At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrante Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark?
Well, hearts and flowers would have been lovely, but I think we all knew that wasn't what our David and Maddie were all about. We knew we were in for some rocky seas, but what we got in this episode was not even close to what we expected.
Where was the comedy...where was the case? If you were a brand new viewer, this episode wouldn't have given you a clue that these two worked together and ran a detective agency.
Yes, there was innovation, and some great guest stars, but even the very well done Honeymooner scenes couldn't save this one.
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graycav56
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 17:35:35 GMT -5
1. At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrante Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark?
I thought it started out VERY well. The Honeymooners skit was inspired and seeing real life Dave, there snoozing in the sin bin with ol’ Maddie, led me to believe we were going to enjoy one hell of a ride.
Having (up to this point) enjoyed possibly the finest writing and production quality of any television show in history, you could excuse me for the high hopes.
As the episode went on, however, I just got kind of lost….I mean, what the heck was going on here? You had Maddie saying she was confused. About a hundred thousand times in about the same number of scenes. You have Dave being about the nicest guy you could ever hope for…to no avail.
In most previous episodes, you (at least I) could feel for and understand the positions of both characters. Starting with this one, I felt I just lost my “Maddie-sense”.
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graycav56
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 17:50:11 GMT -5
2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! )
Well, it shows Maddie thinking that Dave, as Ralph Kramden, is “driving the bus” rather than it being a shared responsibility. I think she felt out of control of the situation, something we know makes her feel VERY uncomfortable, to say the least.
It also shows that Maddie understands how crazy Ralph/Dave is for her, yet this does not deter her from avoiding any further steps in the relationship.
Weird huh…she dreams that she and Dave are married in her dreams, yet in real life she doesn’t even consider it a relationship. I just can’t figure out women….real or fictional.
And Rocket was super. Some may wonder why it wasn't Bert and Agnes, but Chuck was perfectly suited for Norton.
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Post by diane on Apr 21, 2009 17:55:50 GMT -5
2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! )Well, it shows Maddie thinking that Dave, as Ralph Kramden, is “driving the bus” rather than it being a shared responsibility. I think she felt out of control of the situation, something we know makes her feel VERY uncomfortable, to say the least. It also shows that Maddie understands how crazy Ralph/Dave is for her, yet this does not deter her from avoiding any further steps in the relationship. Weird huh…she dreams that she and Dave are married in her dreams, yet in real life she doesn’t even consider it a relationship. I just can’t figure out women….real or fictional. And Rocket was super. Some may wonder why it wasn't Bert and Agnes, but Chuck was perfectly suited for Norton. My response to this one is WHAT GRAY SAID...great analysis. I am a woman, and had a hard time with Maddie in this episode. I also rewatched the episode with commentary. Even Glenn and Bruce couldn't remember why they used Charles Rocket instead of Curtis....but man, it worked just fine!
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:05:40 GMT -5
10. Just for fun (and meaning no disrespect to our male colleagues): IMO, David is lookin' pretty fine in this episode. What's your favorite shot of him here?
In the interests of the separation of the sexes, I will decline to answer this particular query.
But from a purely hetero point of view, Dave did indeed look pretty buff.
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Post by diane on Apr 21, 2009 18:06:03 GMT -5
3. Maddie's angst is pretty palpable from the moment she sits up in bed. What have these past weeks meant (or revealed) to her? How does her view of their relationship reflect her personality?
Well, you would think after three years, Maddie would be deriving a little bit of joy out of the fact that they have gotten together. But I agree with David...Maddie has difficulty allowing herself to be happy. Control is such a motivator for her, that she cannot relinquish even a tiny piece of it.
One sentence I jotted down as I watched the episode is "What makes Maddie so unfullfillable?" I know she feels that she is a totally different (read: superior) person than David, and his commonness (I'm just making up words here!) both horrifies and terrifies her. She doesn't understand why she is attracted to him, and seems to believe she should fight the feeling. I refer back to Heiress whan she tells him he is not the person she is supposed to be with. And just look at her body language in the scene in her bathroom -- his singing, hell, his mere existence there caused her to physically cringe!
Granted, we all know David, and the kind of guy he presents himself to be. But at this point, after three years, Maddie knows that much of this is an act. I think there is a major character flaw that won't allow her to get over that.
Now maybe if the two of them had ever really talked instead of bantered, joked, argued, baited, shreiked etc etc.........
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:15:10 GMT -5
One sentence I jotted down as I watched the episode is "What makes Maddie so unfullfillable?" I know she feels that she is a totally different (read: superior) person than David, and his commonness (I'm just making up words here!) both horrifies and terrifies her. She doesn't understand why she is attracted to him, and seems to believe she should fight the feeling. Great observation. Maddie is now in her late 30s. A child of well off parents, obviously well educated, used to the finer things in life even before becoming the jet-set IT girl. You would think that she had an idea of what made her happy long before this point. She obviously had men friends before (not just Sam), and I get the feeling that she knew "bad boys" like Dave existed. But this isn't a first date deal here. Dave and Maddie have been doing this dance for three long years, through case and non-case, through thick and thin, in color and black & white. If she didn't know what was up by now...she never will....and never does, unfortunately.
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Post by jpen on Apr 21, 2009 18:16:03 GMT -5
2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! )Well, it shows Maddie thinking that Dave, as Ralph Kramden, is “driving the bus” rather than it being a shared responsibility. I think she felt out of control of the situation, something we know makes her feel VERY uncomfortable, to say the least. It also shows that Maddie understands how crazy Ralph/Dave is for her, yet this does not deter her from avoiding any further steps in the relationship. Weird huh…she dreams that she and Dave are married in her dreams, yet in real life she doesn’t even consider it a relationship. I just can’t figure out women….real or fictional. And Rocket was super. Some may wonder why it wasn't Bert and Agnes, but Chuck was perfectly suited for Norton. Right on, Gray. And you're lookin' fine in the "sin bin"--LOL!! (If you ever leave the service, I'm sure you've got a great career in advertising, with your flair for the pithy phrase...)
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Post by diane on Apr 21, 2009 18:18:24 GMT -5
Quoting Gray: She obviously had men friends before (not just Sam), and I get the feeling that she knew "bad boys" like Dave existed.
Yeah! Think an internationally known high fashion model had any opportunity to meet some men? Let alone, deal with their attentions!
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graycav56
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:18:47 GMT -5
6. How do you feel about David's declaration to the staff?
I thought it was tremendous. It takes a lot of chutzpah for a guy to do that, not only a guy like Dave who never let anybody get “under his skin” like that (which ignores Tess and Gillian, but I digress). It laid down the gauntlet for Maddie to come into the open about her feelings for Dave, and I think she did, kinda, by not running away or slamming a door or some other Maddie-ism.
Silence means consent???
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graycav56
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:22:34 GMT -5
Right on, Gray. And you're lookin' fine in the "sin bin"--LOL!! (If you ever leave the service, I'm sure you've got a great career in advertising, with your flair for the pithy phrase...) Why thank you dear. And I retired from Active Duty back in 2005, but now work for the government in another capacity. Just can't get away from the fun and games!
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Post by lin212 on Apr 21, 2009 18:23:27 GMT -5
1. At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrante Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark? At the end of THH, I had the feeling that Maddie had finally decided to stop running. As she smiles and leans over to kiss David in the car, it is slow, deliberate, genuine. It is not the out- of-control, frenzied kiss of their previous encounters. She knew exactly what she was doing. So, one might expect that she had gotten over the "you're not the one I'm supposed to be with" syndrome. The Season 4 premier should have picked up at this point. But of course we wouldn't be that lucky. The episode starts off in a nice place , but then it is downhill. I might have understood if GGC had reverted to the "David's not the right guy for me" blabber, but the "we don't have a relationship" argument totally confused me. I know he (GGC) was pressured to send Maddie off into the sunset for a while, but not like this. UGH!
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graycav56
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:26:31 GMT -5
7. Dr. Joyce Brothers and Ray Charles: Genius or Gimmick?
Joyce: Cool. It reinforced Maddie’s constant questioning of her feelings and of what to do.
Ray, as much as I love Ray, didn’t do anything to advance the plot. I didn’t see ANY change in David post-Ray from David pre-Ray. I suppose he had to be there to balance out Dr. Brothers, and does make sense that Maddie would seek solace in some sort of structured analysis and Dave would seek his answers in the lyrics of soul. Unfortunately it, to me, came across as another bit of filler in a filler filled episode.
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graycav56
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I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:34:33 GMT -5
4. "I feel empty inside!” Is this really how Maddie feels? Or is David right--that she just won't let herself be happy?Maybe she needed a cheeseburger. Some hormone things may be at work here, but I’m a guy, so anything I say is going to be wrong. Still, it is quite obvious that the writers are trying to let us, the audience, know that Maddie has a bun in the oven. They have her obviously barfing up breakfast at the office, and later on, in the car, they tease us with the “You don’t WANT to know what I am” bit before devolving into ambivalence. So perhaps they were just thinking that we were going to accept her behavior as a normal part of early pregnancy. The morning sickness deal seems a bit early though. If they are saying they have been fooling around for the last month, it seems a few weeks early for that to start. Hmmm. Maybe this is why she figured it was Sam’s baby and not Dave’s? ?
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