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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 18:37:35 GMT -5
1.At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrant Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark?
I believe by this time, and I could be wrong, that Cybill’s pregnancy was common knowledge. I think we knew they were going to have to deal with that, so for me, her taking off for Chicago seemed totally like something Maddie would do given her emotional state.
I think #2 kind of goes with this question. Maddie left because she was confused about where the relationship was going. I mean, all of that thrashing around they did is usually done later in a relationship after some dating, etc.. Maddie obviously was not counting hours in the office talking and middle of the night stakeouts as dates!! (can’t really blame her!....sorry Gray!)
So, the significance of her dreaming ala BlueMooner style makes total sense to me. What had happened in the 3-4 weeks she had spent with David was obviously weighing very heavy on her heart.
And I love what Gray said about David driving the bus!! Maddie felt she had lost control of the whole situation.
Honeymooners was a great vehicle because it allowed for some comic relief in what otherwise could have been a very, very, VERY tough episode to take. As it is, for me, it makes me sad that Maddie leaves. But then I must add that when it originally aired I knew she would be back, eventually, and of course had no idea what was lurking when she did return. Watching it now, I still have to get prepared mentally everytime I watch S4!!! LOL!!
Charles Rocket was great!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:38:23 GMT -5
And just look at her body language in the scene in her bathroom -- his singing, hell, his mere existence there cause her to physically cringe! Unfortunately, Bruno's album sales show that Maddie was not alone in that reaction. And for the record, I STILL have my Return of Bruno cassette.....but I haven't had a cassette player since like 91.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 18:43:15 GMT -5
3. Maddie's angst is pretty palpable from the moment she sits up in bed. What have these past weeks meant (or revealed) to her? How does her view of their relationship reflect her personality?
I think her inner most desires were revealed to her in ways that she never imagined. And yes, I am talking physically and emotionally. She is so struck by the fact that she actually enjoys being with a man like David that she refuses to “let herself be happy”. I am sure all of her life she envisioned herself meeting, falling in love, and maybe even getting married one day to someone who was the exact opposite of David and she can’t let that idea go. This is part of her personality. She is a “thinker” and does not care to much for spontaneity when it comes to men.
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Post by lin212 on Apr 21, 2009 18:45:56 GMT -5
2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! ;D) In the Honeymooners, Alice was the voice of reason. She knew that Ralph was a blowhard, but a real softie on the inside. He was always trying to be the big man, but usually found himself in situations that humbled him a bit. She loved him deeply even though he frequently irritated her no end. And Ralph was crazy about Alice. Theirs was a real love story. I think this was an inspired vehicle. It makes perfect sense that Maddie would have this dream. She knew how much David loved her as she loved him, but she was looking for something more from him, some explanation of what they were. That's what Ralph/David was struggling to verbalize. And Charles Rocket? Absolutely outstanding. Curtis would have been all wrong in this role. Charlie had the stature to carry off the part perfectly.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 18:46:43 GMT -5
5. What does David mean when he says, "You won't commit!" What do you think David is looking for from the relationship at this point? Is Maddie afraid to commit to him, or is she afraid that David can't/won't commit...or does her "sadness" have nothing to do with commitment?
Dave just wanted the same level of effort and interest that he was putting into the relationship. I thought his analogy of moving from the bedroom to the bathroom to the kitchen was really cool. He offered to do whatever it would take to prove to Maddie that he was in for the long haul, with both feet, yet she didn’t know how to respond.
She is sad, empty, ambivalent because this deal she is in does not fit into the mold of her perfect mate that she has obviously carried since childhood. One would think that with maturity she would be able to see past all that, but, as written, that has not happened.
So yes, Dave is driving the bus, because Maddie just got on without even checking the Route number, and now she is concerned because she isn’t in “her” part of town anymore.
On another note…I gotta say though…14 hours? My man Dave!
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Post by jpen on Apr 21, 2009 18:46:59 GMT -5
4. "I feel empty inside!” Is this really how Maddie feels? Or is David right--that she just won't let herself be happy?Maybe she needed a cheeseburger. Some hormone things may be at work here, but I’m a guy, so anything I say is going to be wrong. Still, it is quite obvious that the writers are trying to let us, the audience, know that Maddie has a bun in the oven. They have her obviously barfing up breakfast at the office, and later on, in the car, they tease us with the “You don’t WANT to know what I am” bit before devolving into ambivalence. So perhaps they were just thinking that we were going to accept her behavior as a normal part of early pregnancy. The morning sickness deal seems a bit early though. If they are saying they have been fooling around for the last month, it seems a few weeks early for that to start. Hmmm. Maybe this is why she figured it was Sam’s baby and not Dave’s? ? I have to say, I never thought of this angle before--that the writers were trying to subtly drop hints about Maddie's pregnancy (though I have always appreciated the irony of "I feel empty inside"...if you only knew, sister!). I always thought Maddie was in the bathroom having a "weepie," because she's so frustrated and confused and...well...sad. Also, I never would've expected the bomb to be dropped in the Bimmer--wow--what an interesting conversation THAT could've been, instead of squeezing all the juice out of "ambivalent." And, at least in my experience, even if the baby was Shammy's (which we know it wasn't), the nausea train typically wouldn't have started for another 1-3 weeks. But the hormones...well, that's another story entirely...
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 18:49:08 GMT -5
4. "I feel empty inside!": Is this really how Maddie feels? Or is David right--that she just won't let herself be happy? I think #4 and 5 go together. I do agree with David that Maddie can’t let go of all of her perquisites for a relationship and just be happy. But again, I understand why Maddie feels the way she does. The whole relationship has started out so unlike what she has ever experienced and she never thought this type of behavior would come from her! So, I can understand her feelings of emptiness. On the other hand, David feels her commitment is not as deep as his. I think he felt her give herself away to the emotions and their desires several times during the 3-4 weeks, but shortly afterwards he could feel her throwing up The Wall or doing the Maddie Hayes Supremes imitation in order to play The Avoidance Game!! This is why he questions her commitment. I think she misunderstands what he is saying here as well. I do believe Maddie is afraid, very, very afraid! This all was not the way it was suppose to be and she does questions David’s ability to stay in a long term relationship. One of the great things about S4 is she is shown otherwise, i.e., the delivery of childbirth books in Chicago, her dreams in ToMT, her discovery of David’s reason for his relationship with Terri and his willingness to attend childbirth classes in TFWMW. Having said this, I too am very disappointed that they chose to write Maddie this way, but have since come to terms with her behavior!! LOL!! It is how I cope, ok??!!
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 18:52:24 GMT -5
8. And now for a little speculation...Maddie tells David she loves him in the laundromat. Do you think this is the first time she's said it (not counting the "goodbye grope" speech)? And putting real-life logistics aside, was there anything David could have said or done in this scene to make her stay?
Good question. Could quite possibly be the first time she has said it, but not the first time she has felt it!
As far as David preventing her from leaving, I don’t think he could have done a thing.
9. Overall, are David and Maddie's actions and reactions in this episode true to their characters as we have come to know them in Seasons 1-3?
Short and simple, yes.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 18:58:33 GMT -5
10. Just for fun (and meaning no disrespect to our male colleagues): IMO, David is lookin' pretty fine in this episode. What's your favorite shot of him here? Yes, he does look great, but I have always noticed in this episode how they both look really tired in some scenes. Particularly Bruce in the Laundromat and Cybill when she gets in the Bimmer for the date and when she opens the door after David’s spoof with the bad guy on the porch. I think even Bruce mentions in the commentary that he could tell they had shot some stuff on different days. He does not say it, but it looks like they just woke up at times. Cybill was probably feeling very pregnant and the long hours were taking it’s toll on both of them. Other than that, they are both gorgeous as always!! 11. And finally...What is the DEAL with the six-minute set piece "David v. the Invisible Prowler"? Prizes will be awarded for any explanation that makes this scene plausible within the context of the episode... I have never been able to figure this out, but I am sure Gray will win the prize!!! We need to at least give him one for his avatar!! And I think we should give one to Diane for her quote of the day in her signature. .....I still get a big ol' lump in my throat when I hear David say that!!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 21, 2009 18:59:44 GMT -5
1. At the end of "To Heiress Human," we left our favorite couple on the verge of being caught in flagrante Bimmer. What were you expecting from the Season 4 premiere? In what ways does TttM hit or miss the mark? THH left me feeling great, I loved it, yes still conflict but what's chemistry without reactions. TttM, based on the prior episode was a let down. Maddie seemed so unreasonable (another word may be better), I just don't like the David/good...Maddie/bad message reflected. Confusion doesn't describe Maddie's actions adequately, more like schizophrenia. I expected Maddie to have issues of some sort and I agree with Gray here saying she viewed David as the one in control; which bothered her, yet the total lack of effort to bond with David just doesn't fit with the kind of attraction I watched for three seasons.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Apr 21, 2009 19:00:41 GMT -5
8. And now for a little speculation...Maddie tells David she loves him in the laundromat. Do you think this is the first time she's said it (not counting the "goodbye grope" speech)? And putting real-life logistics aside, was there anything David could have said or done in this scene to make her stay?
Nah, I don’t think this is the first time she said it, because if it were, there would have been more of a reaction on both of their parts.
I don’t think Dave was in any position to keep her from going, although I don’t think he considered any quantum leap to Chicago. He was giving her all the options, to take all the time she needed to figure things out, and he would still be there, and wouldn’t be dancing with anybody else in the laundromat.
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Post by beesnbears on Apr 21, 2009 19:09:57 GMT -5
Weird huh…she dreams that she and Dave are married in her dreams, yet in real life she doesn’t even consider it a relationship. I just can’t figure out women….real or fictional. gray This is what really scares Maddie!! She does not want to believe any of the dreams she has ever had about David....and she has had many!! Gray, you are not suppose to figure us out!! Makes things interesting for all parties, no??!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 21, 2009 19:11:46 GMT -5
2. Let's talk about "The BlueMooners." What do you think is the significance of Maddie having this particular dream sequence, rather than David? Do you think "The Honeymooners" was a good vehicle? (And, BTW, how GREAT is Charles Rocket?! ;D) Maddie's dreaming is significant of how she views David's responses to her needs. He's speaking majority of the sequence; going on tangents, making demands, showing no sensitivity to Maddie's requests (at least from her POV). Therefore, The Honeymooner's was a good vehicle because we know Ralph to be stubborn yet underneath loved Alice dearly and all BS aside; Ralph did what he had to in order to please Alice. PS...Charles Rocket...perfect, the lankiness, the delivery...perfect!
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Post by lin212 on Apr 21, 2009 19:13:40 GMT -5
3. Maddie's angst is pretty palpable from the moment she sits up in bed. What have these past weeks meant (or revealed) to her? How does her view of their relationship reflect her personality? What comes to mind is Maddie's comment to David while in the office: "I don't do that...not like that." Then there was her remark in THH after she and David had mussed the sheets. "Why does this keep happening?" and then, "Just because it's terrific, doesn't mean I have to like it!" while then admitting that she does like it. I think that Maddie cannot come to grips with the fact that she enjoys the physical side of their relationship. She is rather prudish and is concerned that it is just sex for David - nothing more. She needs it to mean something and is afraid that it doesn't. What is her response to David when he offers to go out on a date, talk and do all the things she talked about in the morning? "The thought of sleeping alone destroys you, doesn't it?" I think she is ashamed. Her behavior is not what she expected of herself. That's why she feels empty inside.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Apr 21, 2009 19:13:58 GMT -5
3. Maddie's angst is pretty palpable from the moment she sits up in bed. What have these past weeks meant (or revealed) to her? How does her view of their relationship reflect her personality? What comes to mind is Maddie's comment to David while in the office: "I don't do that...not like that." Then there was her remark in THH after she and David had mussed the sheets. "Why does this keep happening?" and then, "Just because it's terrific, doesn't mean I have to like it!" while then admitting that she does like it. I think that Maddie cannot come to grips with the fact that she enjoys the physical side of their relationship. She is rather prudish and is concerned that it is just sex for David - nothing more. She needs it to mean something and is afraid that it doesn't. What is her response to David when he offers to go out on a date, talk and do all the things she talked about in the morning? "The thought of sleeping alone destroys you, doesn't it?" I think she is ashamed. Her behavior is not what she expected of herself. That's why she feels empty inside. Wow, great call Lin
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