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Post by jpen on Mar 3, 2009 20:04:58 GMT -5
Well, “Big Man” is so BIG that it took three of us to tackle the questions…so tonight’s discussion is a collaborative effort, brought to you by lin, graycav, and jpen. There’s a LOT here; not trying to overwhelm anyone, but this episode is an absolute feast of issues and revelations, and hopefully the questions reflect that. Enjoy! 1. We know that baring his soul is not David's strong suit and spontaneity is not Maddie's. The fact that both travel into uncharted territory is revealing. What does it tell us about their relationship at this point? 2. As the episode opens, we are treated to a variation on the theme of “David Goes on a Bender.” Another significant “relationship” episode, “Witness to the Execution,” also starts with David in a hungover state, and of course there are many other moments in the series when David is “overserved.” (For a breakdown of these moments, see davidandmaddie.com/bar.htm) Do you see any significance to this choice for this episode? 3. In the argument in her office, David and Maddie have the following exchange: David: The fact that the way I choose to be differs from the way you choose to be does not give you any right to get on your morally superior high horse! Maddie: Well, that’s kinda nice for the irresponsible team, isn’t it? You count on the rest of us to cover for you, so you’ll be free to do whatever you please! Do you think we are supposed to agree with one character or the other? Do their positions alter during the course of the episode? 4. This question relates to the dream/dance sequence. At this point, Maddie does not know the details of David's relationship with his ex-wife, yet in her dream, she imagines the ex as the “bad guy.” It's interesting that she doesn't blame David for the break-up. What does this tell us about Maddie's opinion of David? 5. What does the scene in the bar reveal about David and his past? Is this consistent with the portrait David paints later on? *A note here: “Top Cat” was a Hanna-Barbera cartoon from the early 60’s; Top Cat (or T.C.) was the leader of a band of alley cats. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Cat) 6. David leaves his buddies to call Maddie, to check in with her. What does his one-sided “conversation” tell us? 7. I have transcribed Maddie’s speech in the hotel room; it will be in the following post if you want to go over it. What do you think Maddie is hoping for here? Do you think she ends up saying more than she has intended? *If anyone has a copy of this script, and is willing to jump in with comments about differences between how this scene was written and actually played, I know we’d all be very appreciative!! 8. Silence is so crucial in this episode; in fact, what is NOT said is at least as important as what is said. David says nothing throughout Maddie’s speech; Maddie is quiet while David tells her about Tess. However, in both cases, their facial expressions and reactions seem to speak volumes. Two questions come to mind: a) What does the silent partner seem to be thinking, in each case? b) What is the effect on Maddie of David’s silence, and vice versa? 9. David’s telling Maddie about Tess is a big deal. Why do you think that he couldn’t tell Maddie the whole truth? 10. David and Maddie each experience an unplanned pregnancy. What do their respective reactions reveal about their characters? 11. In the hotel argument, Maddie shouts, “I was looking forward to this funeral!” What do you think were her expectations? What is at stake for David in going alone vs. taking her? 12. Maddie chooses not to confront David about Tess in the scene in the airplane. Does this mark a change in Maddie?
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:24:17 GMT -5
1. We know that baring his soul is not David's strong suit and spontaneity is not Maddie's. The fact that both travel into uncharted territory is revealing. What does it tell us about their relationship at this point? David and Maddie traveling uncharted territory reveals subconsciously, they bring out the uncommon facets of each others personality. David and Maddie have a desire to be there for each other, a desire to be with each other. Although they can't admit it, not even to themselves, they're like magnets...forever clinging to the other. The desire to remedy each others issues, to show support to one another shows me their relationship is severely underestimated in their own eyes...yet we all can see it! Albeit, they don't own up to being a couple, David and Maddie present themselves as such through their constant companionship outside of the office.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Mar 3, 2009 20:27:11 GMT -5
1. We know that baring his soul is not David's strong suit and spontaneity is not Maddie's. The fact that both travel into uncharted territory is revealing. What does it tell us about their relationship at this point?
I agree that there are some changes here. David having to open up to Maddie about being married was a watershed event. I mean, he COULD have made up another whopper to cover his trip to NYC, saying it was an uncle or something, but at least at THIS point, he was truthful.
Maddie’s spur of the moment trip to meet up with David, after her interesting dream, was also something of a change in character, one that increases exponentially through the rest of the series…sometimes for good, sometimes not. Was the trip to satisfy her curiosity of what kind of woman David would marry? Was it to console him? I’m not fully sure…and I don’t think Maddie was either.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
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Post by graycav56 on Mar 3, 2009 20:33:19 GMT -5
You know I want to take a moment to reflect on something that I feel right now, and that is a tinge of sadness.
In two different scenes in this episode I miss some of my innocence that I lost on 9/11. The first is when Maddie stated that she could catch a flight leaving in an hour if she caught a cab. Obviously pre-TSA.
The second that you ALL caught is the scene of the WTC towers in the background when Dave is in the cab.
A buddy of mine, one of my helicopter pilots, was also a fireman, at the Duane Street Firehouse. He and all of his mates survived because they were one of the first responders and got to the tower that stayed up the longest. He was also detailed there for months as an FDNY operations officer during the recovery process. He was medically retired because of lung issues.
I don't want to turn this into a bummer folks, but I was compelled to write this, and hope you all join me in remembering those lost in your own way.
Now back to the questions!!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Mar 3, 2009 20:34:49 GMT -5
2. As the episode opens, we are treated to a variation on the theme of “David Goes on a Bender.” Another significant “relationship” episode, “Witness to the Execution,” also starts with David in a hungover state, and of course there are many other moments in the series when David is “overserved.” (For a breakdown of these moments, see davidandmaddie.com/bar.htm) Do you see any significance to this choice for this episode?Well, there is no “reason” for the inebriation. What is his motivation? Was he ticked at Maddie? Did he lose a bet? Did his cat die? Nothing mentioned, so it just looked like Dave wanted to go on a bender. The big issue I have here is that he went on a liquor fueled joyride when he damn well knew that they needed those pictures delivered the next morning for a PAYING client. Damned unprofessional and I thought by this point he was beyond that.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:35:43 GMT -5
Thanks Lin, Gray and JPen for these awesome questions! Wonderfully done, bravo!!! 2. As the episode opens, we are treated to a variation on the theme of “David Goes on a Bender.” Another significant “relationship” episode, “Witness to the Execution,” also starts with David in a hungover state, and of course there are many other moments in the series when David is “overserved.” (For a breakdown of these moments, see davidandmaddie.com/bar.htm) Do you see any significance to this choice for this episode? Well, it's imperative to this particular episode because it is the basic dynamic of David's irresponsible behavior and Maddie's concern for his "adult attitude". Maddie is surprised to hear David had been married because she feels that marriage is an adult thing to do; it totally contradicts her impression of David's sense of responsibility from earlier that day. This also lends to the bar scene with his buddies at the wake for Jimmy...showing the pattern of David's familiarity with bar surroundings...his comfort with that atmosphere. David's "over served" state is a prequel of roots that are later revealed in the scene with his buddies.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Mar 3, 2009 20:39:26 GMT -5
Well, it's imperative to this particular episode because it is the basic dynamic of David's irresponsible behavior and Maddie's concern for his "adult attitude". Maddie is surprised to hear David had been married because she feels that marriage is an adult thing to do; it totally contradicts her impression of David's sense of responsibility from earlier that day. This also lends to the bar scene with his buddies at the wake for Jimmy...showing the pattern of David's familiarity with bar surroundings...his comfort with that atmosphere. David's "over served" state is a prequel of roots that are later revealed in the scene with his buddies. Whoa! This is what I LOVE about this board. I NEVER thought of these scenes as they relate to the overall story. BRAVO Since! You have opened my eyes once again!
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Post by lin212 on Mar 3, 2009 20:41:00 GMT -5
Thanks, Jen, for taking the lead on this and posting the questions. I am going to jump in here and put in my 2 cents.
2. "David on a Bender" - significance in this episode:
The "bender" incidents highlight David's irresponsibility. This is significant in this episode because it is in direct contrast to the portrait of a young David who takes responsibility for his actions and marries Tess. I immediately think of David's line, "I can be the picture of dependability if I want". His words are a foreshadowing of the story he tells Maddie later on in the episode.
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Post by jpen on Mar 3, 2009 20:41:14 GMT -5
Sorry...meant to post this earlier, but small domestic crisis intervened...
MADDIE'S SPEECH I know you’re wondering what I’m doing here. I don’t know myself. Somewhere over Arizona I realized I shouldn’t be on this plane. By then, there was nothing I could do about it. So here I am, and the only explanation I have is that I guess I thought I could help you…I don’t know why I thought that, but I did.
(Brief eye contact) But don’t worry—don’t worry, I can leave, I already checked. There’s a flight back to LA in an hour, and if I catch a cab now, I can make it.
Except that I’m really exhausted and I’d kinda like to get some rest. Only—if I stay, I thought I’d like to be sort of…nearby. But I already asked about the room next door, and the man at the desk said he wouldn’t give it to me unless you said it was OK.
So I guess you have to tell him it’s OK…(pause)…unless it isn’t OK. I feel…like an ass—I know I’m not making any sense.
(Brief eye contact again) What I’m trying to say is, that I’m really sorry about your friend—I mean, your brother-in-law, and if I seemed a little frosty when you told me, it’s only because I was so surprised that you’d been married…which is stupid, right? I mean, why should I think you would tell me you were married? I mean, I understand…that there are things we’ll never talk about. There should be things…pieces…pockets of our lives that are private. I…I mean, I certainly…have plenty of things I’ve never talked to you about.
(Eyes again) I mean, it’s not like we have that kind of relationship…It’s not like we’re…
(Long pause; she stands up) You know, I just realized what I should do. What I should do is go catch that airplane…
David: Don’t go.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:44:44 GMT -5
3. In the argument in her office, David and Maddie have the following exchange: David: The fact that the way I choose to be differs from the way you choose to be does not give you any right to get on your morally superior high horse! Maddie: Well, that’s kinda nice for the irresponsible team, isn’t it? You count on the rest of us to cover for you, so you’ll be free to do whatever you please! Do you think we are supposed to agree with one character or the other? Do their positions alter during the course of the episode? Humm, good questions, I'll try to be objective with my answer. I can see both sides of this coin...Maddie makes a great point though after David tells her she could have passed out in the bar the night before and she replies..."Then who would have met Mrs. Kendrick for breakfast?" I guess I agree with them both, are we supposed to agree? I guess to some degree, we should understand both points of view; I find it difficult to pick a side because they both make total sense. Do their positions alter, I don't think so~I'd love for someone to point out what I may have missed about this.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Mar 3, 2009 20:46:45 GMT -5
3. In the argument in her office, David and Maddie have the following exchange:
David: The fact that the way I choose to be differs from the way you choose to be does not give you any right to get on your morally superior high horse!
Maddie: Well, that’s kinda nice for the irresponsible team, isn’t it? You count on the rest of us to cover for you, so you’ll be free to do whatever you please!
Do you think we are supposed to agree with one character or the other? Do their positions alter during the course of the episode?
Man I am on Maddie’s side this entire way. She has tried on numerous occasions to get David to be more responsible (My Fair David, Symphony in Knocked Flat, etc) and here is our hero, off the wagon once again. Except this time his indiscretions didn’t cause him to lose a date, or ruin a “fine” evening, it cost the company cashflow…and he had zero excuse.
And then we have Dave’s story about why he got married, which shows him to be the responsible one at a younger time. Hmm, perhaps he uses alcohol to forget? Not an excuse mind you, but many of us take a nip to exorcise memory demons from time to time.
We’ll discuss this further in a later answer.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:48:02 GMT -5
1. We know that baring his soul is not David's strong suit and spontaneity is not Maddie's. The fact that both travel into uncharted territory is revealing. What does it tell us about their relationship at this point?I agree that there are some changes here. David having to open up to Maddie about being married was a watershed event. I mean, he COULD have made up another whopper to cover his trip to NYC, saying it was an uncle or something, but at least at THIS point, he was truthful. Maddie’s spur of the moment trip to meet up with David, after her interesting dream, was also something of a change in character, one that increases exponentially through the rest of the series…sometimes for good, sometimes not. Was the trip to satisfy her curiosity of what kind of woman David would marry? Was it to console him? I’m not fully sure…and I don’t think Maddie was either. Great point Gray! Maddie admitted it in the scene when David comes into her room to explain his situation. Not only once, but twice, she didn't know exactly why she was there...it may have been a combination of the two reasons you listed above.
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Post by manitobadesigner on Mar 3, 2009 20:50:43 GMT -5
4. This question relates to the dream/dance sequence. At this point, Maddie does not know the details of David's relationship with his ex-wife, yet in her dream, she imagines the ex as the “bad guy.” It's interesting that she doesn't blame David for the break-up. What does this tell us about Maddie's opinion of David?
Ooooh jpen, such meaty Qs tonight! I'm blown away by the thought you put into these, way to go!!
Maddie's dream was telling in many ways. I really love the fact that you asked this question, by the way, because I never really thought about this point.
Maddie has had enough time to get to know David by this time, literally and instinctively. Though she wouldn't consider herself an intuitive person primarily - rather a thinker - the David portrayed in her dream has positive characteristics Maddie would never admit to out loud, or even to herself. I believe that by this stage in their relationship, Maddie subconsciously knows David is above all, loyal and trustworthy and would never be the one to cheat on his partner - outwardly of course, she would say that he's a womanizing slug. To her, a dream like that would've seemed like a nightmare because the dream is revealing things about him and her that she would be loathe to admit to herself.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:52:00 GMT -5
The second that you ALL caught is the scene of the WTC towers in the background when Dave is in the cab. Gray my man, you're not alone...I feel ya on this one! I sooooo thought about that day when I saw them standing there in all their splendor under the night sky. No bummer, it's good to do this, the Twin Towers have forever changed our lives...we just have to make sure it's for the better as much as we can. Blessings of healing to your friend too!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Mar 3, 2009 20:53:25 GMT -5
Well, there is no “reason” for the inebriation. What is his motivation? Was he ticked at Maddie? Did he lose a bet? Did his cat die? Nothing mentioned, so it just looked like Dave wanted to go on a bender. This is just dam funny Gray, LMAO!
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