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Post by diane on Feb 10, 2009 18:59:51 GMT -5
Good evening ladies and gent!
Before we start, I have got to confess that I am pretty much "essed" with this episode. It is my number two all time favorite episode, and in spite of the fact that I have probably seen it a hundred times, I watched it again three times this afternoon and read the script twice, once while watching, and once while not watching.
As I said, I own the script, the "Blue Moon" coffee mug and the photo of the Blue Moon staff that you see dumped off the desk in the beginning, and an actual pair of the pajamas that Maddie/Cybill wore in the episode. Am I scaring you yet?
I think it is an episode that is hard to keep the personal side out of......although none of us are Maddie, I think it is hard to keep our own viewpoints about fathers and daughters out of the conversation, much the way I think a guy would have trouble with the father/son relationships in "The Son Also Rises". Grey gave us some good insights into the male point of view with that episode....maybe we can return the favor with this one.
So, you probably won't be surprised when I tell you I have two sets of questions. The first set is designed to discuss the episode as it aired. Then I have another set based on the script. The script does some things very differently...so much so that I think it might have completely changed the rest of season 4 had it been performed as written.
So here is what I am going to do. I will post the first set of questions. Then I would like you all to decide when I should post the second. I have no problem with waiting even a day or two, if the discussion warrants it. Or I can wait and post set two in a few hours. Toss out a few opinions and we will come up with a consensus.
SO, away we go with set 1.....enjoy!!
1. The title of this episode, "Father Knows Last" comes from a 60s family sitcom called "Father Knows Best", in which a father copes with the issues of his growing family.
In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
2. From the expanding packet of popcorn in the beginning, we know the news of Maddie's pregnancy is going to "pop". What is your feeling about her parents' reactions? Do you feel she herself has come to grips with the pregnancy yet?
3. Is David a "father figure" to the office staff? How do you interpret their reactions in this episode?
4. Bert and Agnes play small but pivotal roles in this episode. How would you describe their roles in the Blue Moon family?
5. In a previous episode, Mrs. Hayes described Maddie as her father's daughter. What in the way that Mr. Hayes handled this situation reminded you of Maddie?
6. Does David's commitment change or grow throughout the episode after his encounter with Mr. Hayes?
7. There is no question that can do justice to David's declaration on the plane. Just tell us what you absolutely loved about it.
8. David says, "When it comes to this whole mess, we've got a dead heat between things I've done wrong and things I've done right." I think at the same time, throughout the whole series, we have a huge contrast between what we as the audience get to see of David, and what is actually revealed to Maddie. What do you think would have been different had Maddie been a fly on the wall in that plane?
OK...I could go on, but you might kill me. Have fun, and remember......vote on what we should do with the script questions.
thanks, diane
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 10, 2009 19:12:27 GMT -5
My vote is post as soon as you feel is fit, not to be pushy (now is just fine with me, I don't want to wait...I'm so excited) Sorry, I'm a gemini, lol Later... PS, WOW It's so cool you have the pj's
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Post by lin212 on Feb 10, 2009 19:30:11 GMT -5
I'm with sinceifell on this one, diane. I don' t think I could wait a day or two.
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Post by jpen on Feb 10, 2009 19:39:12 GMT -5
Wow, Diane...this is a FEAST! (Is it weird that I'm shaking a little with excitement over the thought of the script revelations???) My mind is bouncing in a hundred different directions, so I'm just gonna plunge in, order be darned: 5. In a previous episode, Mrs. Hayes described Maddie as her father's daughter. What in the way that Mr. Hayes handled this situation reminded you of Maddie? So funny that you asked this...as soon as Mr. Hayes walks into David's office, I realized he had become a kind of Maddie-by-proxy. He doesn't let David snow him, and matches him quip for quip; it's like a platonic David-and-Maddie banter. In the restaurant, he makes some pretty enormous assumptions (if Maddie won't talk to him, how could he know with any certainty that David is the father?) and then he runs right over David in their conversation, just as Maddie (bless her heart!) has been known to do (most significantly in her office in IACM). And then, of course, there's "the ol' Hayes backside" on the plane... But also, Mr. Hayes is acting out of love for his daughter--he is fiercely protective of her, in the same way that Maddie is protective of her mother in "Every Father's Daughter." In fact, Mr. Hayes' conversation with David in the restaurant is almost the verbal equivalent of the "clutch assault" in that earlier episode. Even so, Mr. Hayes eventually lets David have his say--and admits that he was wrong. Maddie does the same in MHGM, and also in "Flesh Made Word" when she hears David out. They're both stubborn, but eventually they come around. So, Maddie's dad might come off as stern and gruff, but he has a huge heart...just like our Ms. Hayes.
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Post by rose35 on Feb 10, 2009 19:51:02 GMT -5
Hey all! Oh Diane ,got some cool questions there! And i agree with the other gals so far, please dont keep us in suspence for a few days, we want them tonight! UMM Please? I'm giddy too just waiting to hear more more more on this ep! And you Diane are so lucky to have all that stuff! Any ML fans dream is too have real stuff from the show! I just finished dinner and am cleaning up so i will be back later to start answering!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 19:53:50 GMT -5
Let me start with agreeing that this is one of my most favorite episodes. I think the quality of the acting, especially that on the part of Bruce and Robert Webber, are showcases of the finest we humans have to offer.
I hope you like the avatar that I made for this week...back to being the screwball I am.
Anyhow, to the questions:
In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
Who knows last? Ah, I think it depends on what we are talking about. I find that each of them learns bits and pieces throughout the episode, which makes this one so much fun to watch.
Of course Alex was going to be protective of his daughter, even if she IS 36. He is a very organized man, and this trait, for the MOST part, has been passed on to his little girl. I found it interesting that he asked her about her plans for the baby immediately after finding out and comforting her. When he found out that there was no plan, he made an immediate assumption that the other half of the duo would have one for sure.
I found Alex's assumption that David was the dad to be interesting. I expect that he saw something in David at their earlier meeting that led him to believe that David would be suitable for Maddie, at least as a romantic partner, otherwise he wouldn't have flown there. Remember that at this point even Maddie does not know who the father is. Alex wouldn't even THINK that Maddie would be having a simultaneous affair, so he didn't even consider that possibility.
So, David knows Maddie is with child first of course, and despite her denials thinks it MAY be his. Alex thinks for sure David is the father, and still believes so, up to the end of this episode.
I think the most important thing they learn is that Alex sees David as a son in law, and David sees Alex as a father in law....a bond was formed.
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Post by jpen on Feb 10, 2009 19:55:39 GMT -5
3. Is David a "father figure" to the office staff? How do you interpret their reactions in this episode? David is definitely a "father figure" as far back as S2, I think. The office staff (acting like children, as they have several times before) holds him responsible when things go south, though I don't think he himself realizes how much they look to him for leadership until Agnes lets him have it. In the end of the episode, we see him take the reins again, sorting everyone out and ordering MacGillicudy and Viola to bury the hatchet.
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Post by lin212 on Feb 10, 2009 19:56:47 GMT -5
1. The title of this episode, "Father Knows Last" comes from a 60s family sitcom called "Father Knows Best", in which a father copes with the issues of his growing family.
In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
I've wondered about the title of this episode as well. Obviously, Mr. Hayes was the last to know about the pregnancy. At the end of the episode, however, David knew that no matter what, he wanted to take responsibility for the baby. He was ready to be the daddy not knowing if he was the baby's biological father. He had worked through the situation and was ready to move forward. So, in a real sense, he was the last to know. Which father knows best? I vote for Mr. Hayes on this one. In the end, he came through, apologized for his behavior and tried to make David see that he should still fight for Maddie. He provided the financial support to get Blue Moon on its feet so that David would have the opportunity to show what he was made of. Mr. Hayes comes to learn of David's deep love for Maddie and the heartache that he has endured. I believe that this discovery puts David in a new light in Mr. Hayes' eyes. He has earned a new respect for David. As for David, I believe that he comes to know himself and how much he wants to be the father of this child.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 19:57:12 GMT -5
2. From the expanding packet of popcorn in the beginning, we know the news of Maddie's pregnancy is going to "pop". What is your feeling about her parents' reactions? Do you feel she herself has come to grips with the pregnancy yet?
I think they both handled it pretty well. I am sure they both were wondering if Maddie was EVER going to fall in love, get married and raise a family. It is obvious they wanted grandchildren.
As for Maddie, I think that telling her mother was a good step to accepting the inevitable. She went from denial and cover up to finally realizing what was to be, was to be.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 20:00:16 GMT -5
3. Is David a "father figure" to the office staff? How do you interpret their reactions in this episode?
Agree with jpen. Without David as the father, the "big brother, big sister" tandem of Bert and Agnes can only do so much to keep things on an even keel. Hey! That kinda answers question 4! A twofer!!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 19:58:58 GMT -5
My vote for the other script is to wait until this one gets discussed to death!! Sorry ya'll........
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 20:06:14 GMT -5
5. In a previous episode, Mrs. Hayes described Maddie as her father's daughter. What in the way that Mr. Hayes handled this situation reminded you of Maddie?
Again, I think this is perfect casting. Maddie is obviously an over achiever, as shown by the numerous trophies and awards still preserved, like a shrine, in her bedroom. She obviously did well at everything she attempted and this was both encouraged and rewarded by her loving father.
Just looking at their house, you know he is successful, yet tasteful. I find that bit of class also went down a generation to Maddie as well. She liked the finer things, but didn't appear to throw money away on trivial things.
I like the way that Alex doesn't waste time and, after a cordial start, gets right to the point...and when he doesn't get his way....he bails and walks away...just like Maddie uses the old door slam.
I found it 100% believable that Robert Webber was her dad. No doubt about it.
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Post by lin212 on Feb 10, 2009 20:08:38 GMT -5
2. What is your feeling about her parents' reactions? Do you feel that she herself has come to grips with the pregnancy yet?
Her parents reacted exactly as I would have expected them to. Both were comforting and understanding, ready to support Maddie in every way possible. I think that Maddie came to grips with the pregnancy when she admitted it to her mother. Somehow saying it out loud seemed to make it real. Notice how she says, "I'm going to have a baby", almost with wonderment. The realization finally hits her.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 20:14:26 GMT -5
6. Does David's commitment change or grow throughout the episode after his encounter with Mr. Hayes?
I Dave understands, after a point, that he MUST have Mr. Hayes as an ally or he will NEVER get Maddie back. I don't think she would ever go against her father, especially in the current situation.
You see this at the first meeting in the office, when he tries to quickly straighten his tie and then attempts to not let on about the economic tsunami confronting Blue Moon. You see him try (badly) to not let on about his one night stand that just happened to visit at the restaurant.
You obviously see it when he makes the desperate plea at the airport and, after failing that, on the plane. Oh yeah, Dave knew this was THE decisive point in the battle. This was his Little Round Top (Gettysburg reference....sorry). He absolutely had to go for broke winning over Mr. Hayes and the truth was the only path he could take.
He continues to grow when Mr. Hayes brings him the drink and they talk about fatherhood. Yes, there was another zing there about the business, but overall I think Dave let Alex's words sink in. If he played it right, he won this round.
Of course, at the end he continues the maturation process by making sure the business was in good shape for whenever Maddie would return, and then by taking Alex's advice on reading up on being a "Good Daddy".
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 20:16:50 GMT -5
In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
WEll, I think Mr. Hayes learns this bit if news last as, if you remember, David is getting out of jail about now!
And I think ultimately, they both know best. Mr. Hayes learns that David indeed loves Maddie and was not trying to shirk his duties, so he knows best how to get him to understand the importance of not giving up, getting the business of Blue Moon back in order, and reading up and taking some classes on pregnancy and childbirth. But, I think David makes Mr. Hayes understand that waiting like Maddie wants him to is the best way to handle the situation with his daughter.
It is great to see them come to terms. And I think it is wonderful that Mr. Hayes automatically assumes David has a part in all of it.
Robert Webber was terrific. Perfect casting!
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