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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 12, 2009 15:03:10 GMT -5
Oh Since....... that was just so beautiful what you wrote! You are so not alone! ML's end was and is still painful to me all these years later but i just cant put this show out of my mind. For a few years it was in the back of my life but has now been at the front for many years and i hope it always will be! I really mean it, this forum has been a fabulous outlet, personally and creatively! I sense we all had this nagging pain since LE (I cried like you wouldn't believe, even my Mom was sad for me ), yet the love story between these characters is evident and piercing to the soul. OK, I'm back to the discussion at hand...
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 12, 2009 15:54:09 GMT -5
Great question, diane--I was actually thinking about this yesterday (because ML thoughts just drift in and out of my mind during the day; I really ought to see a professional about that ), and if I could be allowed one of my ridiculous digressions: I think that, if you look hard enough, it's pretty obvious that Moonlighting was a male-dominated show. Yes, it could be incredibly romantic (in a way that might seem oh-so-feminine), but much of the comedy and many of the characterizations are clearly the products of the male mind. I might be lying about this, but I seem to remember GGC saying--in the Pilot commentary, maybe?--that David Addison really is a man's man, the antithesis of a lot of the sensitive, seemingly emasculated men on primetime in the '80s. He's smarmy and cocky and tough, quick-witted and enigmatic; he's got a heart of gold, but he rarely lets you see it. Really, he's the kind of man most men want to be; he's the kind of man men fancy women go for (and, judging by my enormous David Addison crush, I guess that's a pretty fair judgement ). Basically, David Addison is the guy most men wish they could be--charming in an uncultivated sort of way. As for the characterization of Maddie...well, let's just say that I think she would've benefited from a little bit of feminine editorializing. Because, for as headstrong and intelligent and independent as Maddie is, she still has a damsel-in-distress quality to her. I always get a little annoyed when Maddie just stands by and shrieks while David saves the day. The most frustrating example of this, for me, is in "All Creatures Great And...Not So Great", where Maddie just stands there while David fences with a guy on a balcony during a thunderstorm. She has no course of action; she just stands there and screeches and expresses her desire for David to, like, not die in the line of bad-a** duty. In so many of those climactic battles and chases, Maddie is a passive participant--or even worse, a little lady who just gets in the way and makes things worse; very rarely does she have a positive effect on the outcome. That, to me, is antiquated thinking; part of me wonders if the writers fancied David (and themselves) a Knight in Shining Armor. As much as I love this show, and those chase scenes, and David and Maddie--implied attitudes like that continue to irk me. Also--and I know we're supposed to be discussing the show, not the behind-the-scenes drama, so I apologize if this is out-of-line--I think many of the writers had a strong dislike (or at least slight resentment) of Cybill as a person. Without taking sides in this decades-old matter, I do think it's possible that Maddie's unflattering characterization over the years was a result of the writers' personal feelings towards the actress. I know I'm not the first person to propose this idea, but I think that, had there been more female writers on-staff, they would've gone to bat for Cybill and Maddie. But anyway. There is also a running theme in this show where violence (or at least roughness) is equated with passion. Keeping in mind that I absolutely adore the following examples, I also think they reveal that the writers viewed the whole men-taking-charge thing as a turn-on for women (which, again, isn't wholly unrealistic. But, for the sake of my argument, I do think that, had there been more female writers, the love scenes wouldn't have seemed so...testosterone-driven)... -The pre-foreplay foreplay in "I Am Curious...Maddie", by which I mean that fight: David grabbing Maddie by the wrist and pulling her--none too gently--into him, though driven by mutual passion, has a distinct Rhett Butler feel to me. There's the man, sick and tired of all the nonsense, all the beating-around-the-bush; physically grabbing the woman is the only way to melt the tension in to something a bit more...enjoyable. -Maddie's version of the kiss in "The Dream Sequence Always Rings Twice": this one's ironic, I know, since we're led to believe that Maddie is the one imagining it. But it's another example of men taking charge, taunting and teasing and ganging up on the girl until she melts into a puddle for him. I'm not denying the abject hotness of that scene ('cause, let's face it, that's steamy stuff); it's just that the man's-man-ness of David/Zach in that moment is really apparent. But back to the original question: did the male-dominated nature of the staff cause all that conflict between David and Maddie? I think it definitely did--I think that David's viewpoint was always more clear to us as viewers because the writers could more easily access his innermost thoughts. Honestly, I don't think they knew what the heck was going on in Maddie's head--her actions in the later seasons prove that, IMO. Men--and therefore, David Addison--tend to be driven more by impulse and passion and feeling; women, like Maddie, are more practical, less interested in getting their hearts broken. I think that, had the staff been more balanced gender-wise, we could have gotten both sides of the issue. As it was, the point-of-view was almost always rooted firmly in Dave's head (especially in season four; Maddie was almost demonized, at points, and we rarely got a clear idea of what was going on in her head. Season four is almost a love-letter to David Addison, and to male heartbreak. It's brilliant, of course, but it does make for an unbalanced perspective between the two leads). Oh, jeez--this post turned out longer than I had intended. Sorry about the rambling, guys. (And, on a totally unrelated note: I love Virtual Moonlighting. I only discovered it recently, and I have yet to read through it in its entirety, but all you writers do great work. Edit: A quick disclaimer-- gray, you dear Defender of the Male Bluemooners, I hope I haven't offended you with any of this. If I've made egregious, unfair judgements, feel free to call me out. I respect your opinion, especially because you're one of the few males brave enough to share your thoughts here.
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Post by lin212 on Feb 12, 2009 18:58:32 GMT -5
My, so much has transpired since last night. A girl gets a little sleep and goes to work and look what she misses! What insightful and wonderfully "essed" posts! I thoroughly enjoyed reading each and every one.
Thank you, diane, for the alternate scenes. I too vote for the version that aired. Everything just came together so perfectly. I agree that the airplane passengers and attempts to lighten the situation would have ruined the whole thing. A total distraction.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 12, 2009 21:32:27 GMT -5
Dear Gorky,
Fret not young damsel (uh, I have no idea how old you are, so I am making a reach here), thou hath not offended me! There can never be offense in such a forum as this where we can discuss, consider, disagree, banter, etc etc et cetera. In this instance, I think you and I have more opinions in common than you may think.
Let's head back to those thrilling days of yesteryear when the show first aired, as I think that those of us who were of a similar age were able to relate to our couple from a different perspective than those who were perhaps outside a standard deviation or two.
GGC's development of David's character was indeed as you said. The antithesis of the Alan Alda persona. More Sean Connery and less Roger Moore. For over a decade, the mythical "ideal" male had been shuffled off to a corner. John Wayne was gone. Clint Eastwood was still hanging on, but Burt Reynolds was in full comedic mode for the most part. We had Tom Selleck and Don Johnson, but so many other guys looked like they could fit in the cast of Thirtysomething. It made me want to puke.
The first time I saw ML was the original broadcast of Next Stop Murder. I was at a buddies house, having a cookout in the back yard. His wife's kid sister said that my smart a** attitude reminded her of a dude on a new TV show. As it would have it, this was a Tuesday night and of course, we all sat and watched it. There, in David Addison, I saw a real guy. Not a superhero, not a wimp. A flesh and blood man who, although obviously cooler than cool, made you believe that what he was involved in could actually be happening! I immediately identified with him. We were within a few years of age, I was in Philadelphia (where the character was from...Bruce is from across the Delaware Ocean) and both of us were pursuing blue eyed blondes who were always keeping one step ahead of us.
So, yes, I think the show was written and filmed from a mainly male point of view. David was flawed but human and a guy you'd want to hang around with. Most of the women on the show were smoking hot..not just Maddie (kinda reminds me of all the ladies in Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, but that's another network), the scripts were absolutely chock full of one liners that you could use in any bar on South Street (which is why I started taping the shows...so I could write them down), there were fights, and car chases and you name it.
So what, you might ask? Simple. Lots of girls will watch a show that is written or produced for guys. But most dudes, at least those that LIKE girls, will never watch a chick flick, on the big screen or the boob tube. It's the same with cars. Ladies don't have any problems driving hulking SUVs, but how many men do you see driving, say, PT Cruiser convertibles? Not a lot. It may have been a simple mathematical equation used to bring in the most viewers of both sexes. Put just enough mush in to bring in the ladies and the rest can be male fantasy.
Plus it is just easier to write from a guy POV than a woman's. You have probably heard this before: women are like onions where you have layer upon layer upon layer. Men are like eggs...hard on the outside and all gooey inside. That pretty much sums it up. If you wrote ML for a female audience and turned it into a Ya Ya Sisterhood or some other three hankie opera it just wouldn't have had the zing to sustain itself over time. (Go ahead...TRY and find a Ya Ya Sisterhood Website....if it exists their forum probably has three users and NONE of them is a Graycav!) You know, I'm scared. Where the hell did Ya Ya Sisterhood come from? Next thing you know I will be referring to Fried Green Tomato's.
But I digress. So I think the decision to run the show from a Dave standpoint was a conscious one on the part of the writers/producers...but what do I know?!
I also agree with you on the violence issue. Dear old Dave had some anger management issues for sure. Going into bathrooms and attacking defenseless fixtures, the destruction of the Bimmer..the guy could go scary. THIS in my opinion would have been the number one reason Maddie would have had second thoughts about any commitment to him, yet this angle was never really pursued. Maddie was upset about his partying, about his encouragement of the wobblies, about his lack of culture, but never this tendency to REALLY fly off the handle. OK, Maddie never knew about the car or the tantrum in the bathroom in BCYSAB, but there were enough of the other instances that should have turned on a caution light.
Were the writers anti-Cybill and therefore anti-Maddie? I think there is something to be said there. Even some of the audio commentaries on the DVDs contain some, in my opinion, completely out of line remarks directed against her. I will not repeat them here, but I am sure you 'essed folks know what I'm talking about. The lady had been at the top of her profession only to be knocked off, and this was her shot at getting back up again. Obviously anything that was going to get in her way was going to earn her wrath...and the daily chaos involved in making this show earned it in spades. I think all she wanted was organization and when she pressed for that she was rewarded with dialog that did not match the character OR the actress. Yeah, I know her having twins upset the apple cart, but that happens and it could have been dealt with a hundred different ways...ANY of them better than what we got stuck with.
So you see, Ms. Gorky, you and I share a common vision, just from different vantage points.
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Post by diane on Feb 12, 2009 22:18:34 GMT -5
My goodness, Gray.....now I am wondering if you were that guy who tried those lines on me on South Street.
Possibly not, because when Moonlighting aired I was struggling with dating a smart and funny coworker who was five years younger than me.......and we wonder if anything real ever happened on TV.
Meanwhile, I am probably driving you folks crazy with the script stuff, but I have gotta tell you, I love the written word, and in this ep, Kerry Ehrin laid out some doozeys.
I pay attention to the scene setting and the directions, for that is where you find some of the best stuff. Let me give you a couple of gems.....
After Bert rescues Agnes from the wobblie mob -- "DiPesto...untied from the railroad tracks."
Description of the crowd noises: "like dubbed in English from a crowd scene in an Italian gladiator movie".
Agnes standing in the empty office: "Like one stalk of wheat left by the locusts".
Agnes and Bert when David returns: "Two kids rescued by Dad after setting fire to the house".
AND. My absolute favorite.....
David's eyes searching the empty office, "looking for the pony in the shit."
Aren't they great great?
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 12, 2009 22:30:06 GMT -5
Thanks for that thoughtful response, gray--equal parts insightful and amusing, as usual. I absolutely agree with this-- Moonlighting was an emotional, engaging show, but it didn't follow the standard romantic comedy format. It really was a love story from a mostly male viewpoint, and I think, like you say, that's what made it work. It was a pull-no-punches operation, and I think that all viewers--regardless of gender--could appreciate that kind of storytelling. I think that's one of those tell-tale, A Man Is Writing This signs that I was talking about. David's propensity to beat up on stuff when he's angry is somewhat troubling, but it is also an understandable part of his character. It also fits into the manly-man persona that the writers were interested in conveying. David was definitely a passionate man; that this passion was often sublimated by violence, again, speaks to the way the writers' minds worked. And I agree about the commentaries--at points, they were so disrespectful when discussing Cybill. I understand why they would hold grudges, but it wasn't exactly a nice thing to do. But that's a discussion for another time, I suppose.
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Post by rose35 on Feb 12, 2009 22:41:38 GMT -5
Aren't they great great? DIANE
Yes they are! Thanks again for sharing! Lets do this every week LOL So Diane how many scripts do you have again ? LOL Just kidding,i know thias is alot of work but we so very appreciate your time in giving us some more insights to this fabulous show!
And GRAY: Awesome post!
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Post by diane on Feb 12, 2009 23:42:46 GMT -5
Well, I am going to be looking for a job......how much do you think script hoarder and interpreter pays?
Seriously, if we liked the script thing, maybe somewhere in the future we should choose an episode, all get the script and do both watch and read.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 12, 2009 23:44:50 GMT -5
My goodness, Gray diane My goodness is right!! Give the man some stars for Pete's sake!! ;D Gray, you very eloquently put the whole male viewpoint of ML in a great light! Really, had the show been written any other way all of us here would not be such good "friends" today. It had to be from David's point of view. And as far as what you said about parts of the commentaries being disrespectful of Cybill---- it makes me squirm to listen to some of them, so I haven't listened to them in a very long time. It really makes me angry sometimes to think that the ones that were responsible for our show we love so dearly would be so unprofessional as to write with the intent to destroy one of it's characters!! But, like you, I really don't think true fans of ML should even provide a square on the boards to discuss it. So I will shut up about it!! Thanks Gray!!
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Post by rose35 on Feb 13, 2009 0:19:06 GMT -5
Well, I am going to be looking for a job......how much do you think script hoarder and interpreter pays? Seriously, if we liked the script thing, maybe somewhere in the future we should choose an episode, all get the script and do both watch and read. Good luck with the job hunting! Wish we could get paid for being essed fans , we would all be rich LOL And that idea sounds really cool if it could ever be worked out! And yeah i know the script thing you did for us is alot, maybe we can save it for a really important episode you know of that has great stuff that needs to be seen by us all!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 13, 2009 5:22:41 GMT -5
I find these last post enormously entertaining! In case you all notice the time, I'm just returning home after a long pilgrimage over 2 states in 4 1/2 inch heels and the freezing cold of Midwest weather; yet my day is full again because of these posts!
Gorky & Gray, you guys really cut to the heart of the sexual revolution on, in and around ML. I'm not gonna lie, I like that David Addison beats up poor defenseless garbage cans and breaks up wimpy hockey sticks (as long as it isn't over Maddie's head, I'm cool). It makes sense, the expression of his frustration has to be shown in some way. I also like the strong kisses; that hand grab after she slapped him twice could have actually been a little more forceful (ok, maybe I'm a freak).
Be that as it may, as Gray so gray-ciously pointed out some age differences between certain fans; I was pre-teen through mid-teen during ML's run. From my perspective it still delivered; I still got the bawdy innuendo, the quick banter and chemistry between our beloved stars. This is something, us "youngins" have on those actually old enough to date at the time...I-N-F-L-U-E-N-C-E! Yep, influence, just as Gray talked about the pick up lines, I learned things too.
For instance, in TCOM when David takes Maddie to the pool hall and insists she doesn't know how to play pool; then she whips him good at the end of the episode. I love it! What did I learn? You can show people better than you can tell them! Also, keep the element of surprise with your love interest, it'll make you hotter to them! I learned collectively, how to talk with my eyes, I learned to never let em see me sweat (so what if a printer gets trashed, he had it coming!), I also learned never trust a person that's paying you to do detective work (they're probably trying to set you up!) And my wit, woo, ha, oh~I'm a riot with a drink in my hand! I party like Dave yet analyze as Maddie; I wear high heel shoes singing "doo wah diddy" and roll my sleeves up on a finely pressed shirt. I got the best of both worlds and trust me, it's cool...(just to toot my own horn a bit)
The writing for Cybill over time, let's just say they didn't use their creativity to the fullest and trying to screw her around basically screwed everybody (out of a gig)! The lack of any professionalism, forgiveness and dignity on the part of some commentators when referring to Cybill is just grinch-like. It disgusts me awfully and I only listen to the ones with Bruce and/or Cybill; TDSART, that commentary should have never made the DVD.
And see, I know you guys wanna leave it alone and if you notice, I got my slang style goin' so I'm jus' gonna say it...
I am possibly one of Ms. Shepherd's biggest fans, I own photographs (signed and unsigned, some rare pre-ML originals), her CD's, her movies, magazines ads etc...I have a scrap book (well scrap box now) that started 25 years ago (yes its enormous). I have more pictures of her in my phone then I do of my parents (Cybill - 123, Parents - Zip) Needless to say, I'd kick a brick about her...if I see them on the street, I'm bustin' heads with a Styrofoam cup!
OK, now I'm refined...great posts! And Diane, your opening about Gray spitting game at you with Davids' lines is too funny ;D
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 13, 2009 5:29:29 GMT -5
Wish we could get paid for being essed fans , we would all be rich LOL LOL, yes Rose, I'd get biblical and store up gold as dust, lol
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 13, 2009 5:48:47 GMT -5
Possibly not, because when Moonlighting aired I was struggling with dating a smart and funny coworker who was five years younger than me.......and we wonder if anything real ever happened on TV.Now we're getting to the good stuff... AND. My absolute favorite..... David's eyes searching the empty office, " looking for the pony in the shit." Aren't they great great? I have to use this, I'll be using this, lol
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 13, 2009 8:49:49 GMT -5
My goodness, Gray.....now I am wondering if you were that guy who tried those lines on me on South Street. Let me try to remember....there was the Nurse from Cherry Hill...umm the female cop (copette) from the far Northeast...the lady from the tanning salon in Abington......the former nun from Saint Monica's.....nope, no Diane. You must have been immune to the world famous Gray charm. Lucky you!
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 13, 2009 10:06:03 GMT -5
My goodness, Gray.....now I am wondering if you were that guy who tried those lines on me on South Street. Let me try to remember....there was the Nurse from Cherry Hill...umm the female cop (copette) from the far Northeast...the lady from the tanning salon in Abington......the former nun from Saint Monica's.....nope, no Diane. You must have been immune to the world famous Gray charm. Lucky you! Uh-oh...........What is going on in here, folks? ;D I knew it, I knew it! I always miss the good stuff!! Darn!! ;D Way to go, cats and kittens. Always keep your motor running! ;D Oh, BTW, if I don't happen to get round here later or tomorrow... HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY EVERYBODY!! [/color] [/center] Ah, l'Amour.......... ...And Tony.... Do not break hearts tomorrow, buddy!! ;D P.S. Wow! We share a festivity day!
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