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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 21:05:08 GMT -5
Gray----love your avatar!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 21:08:02 GMT -5
You got it right on target bees.
Agnes and Bert are loyal to the end. I loved the way that Agnes brought in the chair from home, and even though she exploded on Dave, she was THERE, doing her job.
Interesting how folks are acting with incomplete knowledge all through this episode. Mr. Hayes just ASSUMES that David is the father, then he ASSUMES that David is a bad guy when he lets it be known that the paternity of the baby is in question.
Agnes ASSUMES David just went away for a few weeks on one of his normal larks and knows nothing of his "Cool Hand Dave" adventures.
David ASSUMES that his normal charm can win over Agnes but in reality it has zero effect. He also assumes that she will defend anything he does, but once he makes that "dumb blonde" reference....well, he finds out how wrong he really is.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 10, 2009 21:10:21 GMT -5
3. Is David a "father figure" to the office staff? How do you interpret their reactions in this episode? Yes, David is definitely a father figure to the wobblies. The way he calls them to come to him, the stern look when he addresses them. The wobblies response requites this relationship; notice how they look ashamed, waiting to be punished when David is pacing back and forth in lecture mode. 4. Bert and Agnes play small but pivotal roles in this episode. How would you describe their roles in the Blue Moon family? Bert & Agnes exude the essence of desiring to be David & Maddie when they grow up! B & A look up to D & M, separate as well as together. I think the hilarious part of this is Bert & Agnes are David & Maddie; roles reversed. Bert is serious, studious and appreciates the slave driving hand of Ms. Hayes. M & B are practical and pessimistic. Agnes is laid back, casual and loves the shenanigans of David; not to mention she has a big heart and is loyal like David too. D & A are eccentric and optimistic. Together, Bert & Agnes love to see David & Maddie in Love; as we all obviously do. Bert & Agnes' roles are so pivotal because each know both sides, thus, using the information they share to coax D & M a little softer when bruising each other. 6. Does David's commitment change or grow throughout the episode after his encounter with Mr. Hayes? David's commitment is revitalized after his encounter with Mr. Hayes! David is weary after enduring so much heartache dealing with Maddie's disappearing act. He feels abandoned and alone; then not to mention the lost deposit, crashing the car, prison... trying to do the right thing yet at every turn, faced unimaginable resistance. We're not going to even talk about the "nay" on the marriage proposal. This guy was about to throw in the towel! Mr. Hayes' visit forced the hand, making David react, thus resurrecting the feelings that had become numb in order to cope with Maddie leaving. Mr. Hayes represents the characteristics of Maddie that makes David step up his game. The only person that can truly challenge David is Maddie; enough to make him react, stand up and let everything be known. 7. There is no question that can do justice to David's declaration on the plane. Just tell us what you absolutely loved about it. David/Bruce pulled at my heart strings in such a way...I had to remind myself that this is a television show. The performance is so genuinely moving, it's hard to watch David, who's usually jovial; cipher all this pain through his one little heart. The frogs in his voice; the control gathered again just as he is about to relinquish, drawing back from full throttle tearing. SIGH 8. David says, "When it comes to this whole mess, we've got a dead heat between things I've done wrong and things I've done right." I think at the same time, throughout the whole series, we have a huge contrast between what we as the audience get to see of David, and what is actually revealed to Maddie. What do you think would have been different had Maddie been a fly on the wall in that plane? [/b][/quote] "Plain" and simple, Maddie would have come home and they would have been MARRIED. David says all the things Maddie desires to hear from him, to Mr. Hayes. PS~Gray, your avatar is awesome and the line is priceless, lol... ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 21:10:29 GMT -5
Before we start, I have got to confess that I am pretty much "essed" with this episode. It is my number two all time favorite episode, and in spite of the fact that I have probably seen it a hundred times, I watched it again three times this afternoon and read the script twice, once while watching, and once while not watching.
Since we are confessing---I watched this ep yesterday and today......after I watched the two Cool Hand Dave episodes!! LOL!! Never mind how much I have watched them in the last year......
As I said, I own the script, the "Blue Moon" coffee mug and the photo of the Blue Moon staff that you see dumped off the desk in the beginning, and an actual pair of the pajamas that Maddie/Cybill wore in the episode. Am I scaring you yet?
I have always wanted Maddie's PJ's!!!!!! I am so jealous!!.....how much will you take for 'em?!?! $$$$$$ ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 21:14:44 GMT -5
Sinceifell----I love your Bert is to Maddie as Agnes is to David!! And Gray---you are right about all of the assuming!! Our little Agnes did assume that David has simply abandoned Blue Moon and gone on a vacation or something. Like sinceifell was saying, poor guy. He just can't catch a break, can he?
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Post by lin212 on Feb 10, 2009 21:18:39 GMT -5
4. Bert and Agnes play small but pivotal roles in this episode. How would you describe their roles in the Blue Moon family? I just love Agnes. She is the smartest one of all of them!! Her riding on Maddie's desk as they cart it out of the office says a thousand things, don't you think? Forever loyal to Blue Moon, a kindred spirit, and is willing to literally knock some sense into David when needed! David and Maddie, in many ways, owe her big time!! And Bert? He does what Bert does. Takes the role of acting head detective very seriously----desk inspections and all---only to fulfill his role as he thinks David would want him to!! But Bert and Agnes's role runs much deeper that office supplies and message machines. They act as we wish David and Maddie would be, only not as "geeky"!! They have relationship stuff figured out and make it look so easy...... So true, bees. Agnes truly is the heart and soul of Blue Moon. Bert seems to see himself as heir apparent, someone with the inside track. So, he holds himself above the others, which probably annoys the staff to death. I bet they don't include him in all the office gossip!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 21:27:11 GMT -5
I'm glad you like this week's avatar bees and sinceifell4u. I thought it was appropriate for this episode.
However, I do love the Stormy Weathers Cybill avatar. Never saw that photo before. Most cool, since.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 10, 2009 21:27:32 GMT -5
6. Does David's commitment change or grow throughout the episode after his encounter with Mr. Hayes? I Dave understands, after a point, that he MUST have Mr. Hayes as an ally or he will NEVER get Maddie back. I don't think she would ever go against her father, especially in the current situation. You see this at the first meeting in the office, when he tries to quickly straighten his tie and then attempts to not let on about the economic tsunami confronting Blue Moon. You see him try (badly) to not let on about his one night stand that just happened to visit at the restaurant. I agree Gray yet it's even more than that...David respects Mr. Hayes, therefore his opinion. David is old fashioned, even though he doesn't let on with his outward personality. David knows he has to have Mr. Hayes' blessing if he ever hopes to marry Maddie; she won't have it any other way. I also agree with another poster who said that David looks at Mr. Hayes as a father-in-law and vice versa. Mr. Hayes likes David very much, he is not a man that pulls punches; he would have given David the cold shoulder if he didn't feel David was good enough for Maddie. I feel that Mr. & Mrs. Hayes make the assumption that David is the father because they know their daughter. Both parents say at some point during this episode how they "know" their daughter. Maddie would have never allowed David to hang out with her parents if she didn't have an interest in him; they know that! Meeting her business partner at the office is one thing but having an intimate dinner with them is another. Yes Mr. Hayes invites him, he senses their body language and sees how his daughter looks at David. Maddie, consciously or unconsciously is "running" David by her parents in EFDIAV.
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Post by diane on Feb 10, 2009 21:30:00 GMT -5
I am watching it again.........essed, I tell you, and I just noticed something.
When Mr. Hayes and David are in the restaurant, Mr. Hayes says to him," I'm not blind and I am not stupid -- pronounced stew-pid........just like Maddie does to David when she tells him about his stew-pid lie in "Big Man"
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 10, 2009 21:30:59 GMT -5
Alex's reaction on the other hand is supportive yet has the flavour of a father who's just found out his daughter's been knocked up and is about to go after the guy with a shotgun. True and gut busting funny!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 10, 2009 21:33:27 GMT -5
8. Well we sure as hell wouldn't have had any WALTER BISHOP!! Simply ROTFLMAO, I am so enjoying this! ;D
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Post by lin212 on Feb 10, 2009 21:37:35 GMT -5
Just a fun continuity comment - have you noticed the crazy bloody mary that suddenly is full of celery and then suddenly is not? Cracks me up every time.
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 10, 2009 21:37:47 GMT -5
Tidbits I grabbed on this viewing:
On the plane: Didn't it seem odd that Mr. Hayes didn't fly first class? He was back in steerage like I have to fly! And they put a movie on a LA to Denver flight? Heck, that is a little over 2 hours in the air...not enough time to do the take off, landing and beverage service plus a movie.
In the car with Maddie and Virginia: Didn't that look suspiciously like the Bimmer interior? And how about the rear projection being used versus their normal practice of putting the car on a trailer and getting actual outside footage.
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Post by diane on Feb 10, 2009 21:38:47 GMT -5
1. The title of this episode, "Father Knows Last" comes from a 60s family sitcom called "Father Knows Best", in which a father copes with the issues of his growing family.
In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
I think the father that knows last...information wise is Mr. Hayes.....but the father who KNOWS last is David. Until he completes his conversation with Mr. Hayes, although his intent and commitment are real, he is like dust in the wind.......no plans, no true realization of what he is taking on. I think Mr. Hayes helps ground and focus David on what he needs to do.
I think Mr. Hayes learns that his instincts were right about David and that this guy does indeed have Maddie's happiness and best interests as a priority.
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 10, 2009 21:40:49 GMT -5
7. There is no question that can do justice to David's declaration on the plane. Just tell us what you absolutely loved about it.
Bruce gives one of his best performances in the entire series! I have watched and listened to it many times, and each time I get goosebumps and then teary-eyed right along with him!! It really is a credit to him to be able draw that reaction out of people over and over again!!
What I absolutely loved about the speech, besides him confessing his love for Maddie once again, is that he finally gets to unload on someone. He never gets to explain himself and now he finally does. Think about what this fella has been through before and since Maddie left. .......
...."I have had to chop myself into little pieces—my pride, my personality, everything that I am into little squares for this woman.".........
While not exactly innocent in some of the things he did before and AFTER Maddie left,
..."Believe it or not, out of this whole mess, we got a dead heat between things that I did right and the things I did wrong."..........
he has been through a great deal emotionally. We watched it all from the beginning of S4. All he wanted was for Maddie to come back and be happy!!
And most importantly, he is standing up for himself with his potential father-in-law. Took guts, I think, to chase Mr. Hayes down in the airport, raise his voice to him, follow him onto the plane and then tell him what he told him.
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