|
Post by rose35 on Feb 10, 2009 23:43:19 GMT -5
Me too! I look so forward to these avatar changes. I love the avatars. But I am so technologically challenged I have neither an avatar or anything else creative. Perhaps someday, somebody can help me with one? Oh Diane you are so not alone there! Mine were made by someone a few years ago,i'm so computer illiterate ! i wish i could make cool stuff too!
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Feb 10, 2009 23:55:37 GMT -5
1. The title of this episode, "Father Knows Last" comes from a 60s family sitcom called "Father Knows Best", in which a father copes with the issues of his growing family. In the ML episode....which father knows last? Which father knows best? And what does each father know....or learn throughout the episode?
-Well technically Mr Hayes learns last. My Hayes really is the main voice of reason in this episode. He knows whats best for Maddie and for David too, and well it's each other. But Mr Hayes and David do both kinda wayver during this episode like they both feel that David isnt good enough for Maddie for a short time but then at the end it turns around and they both see how good David really is for Maddie. Do i make sense?
2. From the expanding packet of popcorn in the beginning, we know the news of Maddie's pregnancy is going to "pop". What is your feeling about her parents' reactions? Do you feel she herself has come to grips with the pregnancy yet?
-Maddie's parents really come off as cool parents, they are caring, calm and collected with maddie, where maybe not in front of her they can vent to each other. They mentioned grandkids in EDFIAV ,so you know they are thrilled to have their daughter finally tell thme shes pregnant but i'm sure hoped she would have been married first. They show her their support though. Maddie hasnt come to full grips yet, she may be relieved she doesnt have to lie to her parents anymore but look at her in the Dr's office, and in the car ride home, her body language shows shes not really relaxed about this pregnancy yet, since her love life really is still up in the air and of course the whose the daddy hanging over her head.
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Feb 11, 2009 0:18:34 GMT -5
Also--anybody got an explanation for the "I asked her--she said no" nugget? Or is that spoiling the surprise? Nope, that will definitely not be revealed. I think that is the first question I am going to ask St. Peter when I get to the pearly gates......when the hell did David ask her? ? LOL! I'm right behind you...and may the thought process behind "Lunar Eclipse" be revealed as well!
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 11, 2009 5:32:50 GMT -5
I love the avatars. But I am so technologically challenged I have neither an avatar or anything else creative. Perhaps someday, somebody can help me with one? Oh Diane you are so not alone there! Mine were made by someone a few years ago,i'm so computer illiterate ! i wish i could make cool stuff too! Hey everybody! Just jumping in to say... I can help with that, if you wish! Just ask and it will be given to you! LOL! ;D Have a nice day! P.S. I changed my username, but...Yo, you remember me, right? Sure you do! Ol'.........me!
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 11, 2009 9:59:12 GMT -5
So while sometimes she sees him as the irresponsible devil, we see him as the heart of gold angel with a bit of a pointy tail. There are many examples throughout the episodes that point to this, but in just limiting this to the airplane scene........ Maddie loves him.
... Her lack of faith in herself, and her fear of commitment is as much at fault here as any of David's character traits, real or imagined.That's a selah there, we can pass the collection plate!
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 11, 2009 11:01:25 GMT -5
I love the juxtaposition of the frustration and the rage...he wants to be angry...he wants to tell this man and his daughter to go straight to hell, but yet he knows he can't. A force greater than himself drives him to want to be with this woman. Diane, that just blew through my body like...whoa! David's passion for Maddie has never been the issue at all. Since the first time Maddie stepped into David's office and Ms. Dipesto was looking a "little pale"...he has been in awe of her: Always chivalrous, impeccably so. For example, Maddie can sit down when a client enters the office without looking to see where the chair is, she knows David's got it. And we all have watched Dave "chop himself up into little pieces for this woman"; this force pushes David endlessly and he consistently delivers when the rubber meets the road. David always makes sure Maddie gets what she desires, by any means necessary! That's why, until this very moment, I really didn't understand why she doesn't trust David. Maddie trusts David with everything...except her heart. Example, she leaves her business, her house, her car, her bank accounts (after being swindled, which got us all into this mess)~everything with David when she vanishes..."poof"...for 4 & 1/2 months. Come on people, would you leave somebody you didn't trust with all your assets for 4 & 1/2 months? David understands this force, it's a natural flow of things for him; Maddie doesn't. It's seemingly against everything she knows. Superficially, its not that Maddie doesn't trust David; she doesn't trust how David makes her feel because she feels out of control. It's like she relates that energy to his personality, like she holds David responsible for the chemistry between them. It has to be David right? And to a certain degree, he takes responsibility for it...David tells Mr. Hayes at the restaurant " you taught her how to tie her shoes laces but I'm the one who taught her it's OK to run barefoot once in a while"(may be paraphrasing a bit). Maddie has grown up with the illusion of security and from her father, we see how this has happened. It must be David, so she runs home to "Mommy and Daddy" trying to get that base of her stability back. Attempting to chew the cud of her upbringing and settle the inner discourse that is now taking over her old ways of thinking. Yet, the very source of Maddie's logic (Mr. Hayes) goes to David...humm...just a thought. In EAS, she tells Agnes how wonderful it is to be David, yet expresses how the instability of "always being unsure" is frightening. Like she had no part it in, so if "the chemistry" reacts badly, she is vindicated in her own mind. Ok, I went on a tangent, hope it makes sense, lol. PS...Did anyone catch the look in Maddie's eyes and the teeny, tiny smirk like expression when Mrs. Hayes mentions "it's good to have someone you can depend on" after they leave the doctor? Even though she answers "yeah right", I can hear something in her voice and see that same twinkle in her eyes.
|
|
|
Post by haddie mayes on Feb 11, 2009 11:11:23 GMT -5
Hi everyone . i would just like to say that even though i feel as though i`m a little late to the party i have been following these re-watching threads with great enthusiasm. This episode is probably my fav if not joint fav ( alongside To Heiress...). So i feel oblidged to add my opps. I would like to start with adding my own question first then i`ll try to answer the other questions and hopefully make some sense! There is one thing that has always stood out and kinda bugged me since the very first time i watched this episode . When Maddies dad is talking to David in the restaurant and keeps referring to him as the babys father why is it that David never asks Alex "do you know something that i don`t"? I mean how can David know of Maddies confusion over who the father is( she never spoke to David about it) , when she left even she didn`t know she was pregnant. It never ocurred to David that maybe the reason that Maddies father has flown all that way and is telling David to face up to his responsibilities is that Alex knows who the father is because Maddie told them . Also even if David still had doubts ( at this moment in time before Maddie comes home and tells him the big whopper with cheese) surely the conversation with Bert should have made him wake up and smell the coffee. I mean the only people that have had contact with and spoke to Maddie and know about the baby are all saying that David is the daddy. So to clarify my question again ... Why didn`t David question Alex or Maddie over everyones assumption on him being the babys father? . Like the saying goes " if enough people tell you that your flies are undone maybe you should look down" ;D Maybe Diane could shed some light on this one as she has the script. I`ll come back and answer the other qustions later after i`ve watched the ep for the 1000th time . ;D Only trouble is whenever i put it on i always somehow end up fast forwarding to Davids heart on his sleeve speech.!
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 11, 2009 11:11:25 GMT -5
Hey everybody! Just jumping in to say... I can help with that, if you wish! Just ask and it will be given to you! LOL! ;D Have a nice day! P.S. I changed my username, but...Yo, you remember me, right? Sure you do! Ol'.........me! Hey Gyrl! Missed you...and you know I love the name change, lol!
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 11, 2009 11:37:46 GMT -5
So to clarify my question again ... Why didn`t David question Alex or Maddie over everyone's assumption on him being the baby's father? . Like the saying goes " if enough people tell you that your flies are undone maybe you should look down" ;D I hear you and I often wonder what the conversation between Maddie and Mr. Hayes entails. Obviously they talked and if he asked her about a plan, he probably asked her about the dad. It makes sense based on Mr. Hayes' belief that it "takes two" to raise a child. Therefore, I figure, just a you...Mr. Hayes asked about the plan all around. Another angle to this, for me, is the fact that Mr. Hayes doesn't care about the possibility of someone else fathering the child. He never mentions that he is going to ask Maddie so that he can go to that person. Mr. Hayes simply tells David, regardless to the biological father, David must shoulder the responsibility of Maddie and this child. Why? I think Mr. Hayes, as I stated before in an earlier post, feels like they are a match! That David & Maddie are in love and their youthful foolishness will be worked out. Mr. Hayes finds out in this episode that "Daddy's lil girl" is on some bull herself .
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Feb 11, 2009 12:14:44 GMT -5
Maddie trusts David with everything...except her heart. Example, she leaves her business, her house, her car, her bank accounts (after being swindled, which got us all into this mess)~everything with David when she vanishes..."poof"...for 4 & 1/2 months. Come on people, would you leave somebody you didn't trust with all your assets for 4 & 1/2 months? David understands this force, it's a natural flow of things for him; Maddie doesn't. It's seemingly against everything she knows. Superficially, its not that Maddie doesn't trust David; she doesn't trust how David makes her feel because she feels out of control. It's like she relates that energy to his personality, like she holds David responsible for the chemistry between them. It has to be David right? And to a certain degree, he takes responsibility for it...David tells Mr. Hayes at the restaurant " you taught her how to tie her shoes laces but I'm the one who taught her it's OK to run barefoot for a while"(may be paraphrasing a bit). Maddie has grown up with the illusion of security and from her father, we see how this has happened. It must be David, so she runs home to "Mommy and Daddy" trying to get that base of her stability back. Attempting to chew the cud of her upbringing and settle the inner discourse that is now taking over her old ways of thinking. Yet, the very source of Maddie's logic (Mr. Hayes) goes to David...humm...just a thought. In EAS, she tells Agnes how wonderful it is to be David, yet expresses how the instability of "always being unsure" is frightening. Like she had no part it in, so if "the chemistry" reacts badly, she is vindicated in her own mind. Ok, I went on a tangent, hope it makes sense, lol. PS...Did anyone catch the look in Maddie's eyes and the teeny, tiny smirk like expression when Mrs. Hayes mentions "it's good to have someone you can depend on" after they leave the doctor? Even though she answers "yeah right", I can hear something in her voice and see that same twinkle in her eyes. sinceifell, these are terrific points, and well-supported. I never thought of Maddie "holding David responsible" for the feelings she has for him...but I think that does play a role. This man, who came out of nowhere, this man who drives her crazy, loses weekends, and owns no furniture--what right does he have to make her feel this way?? I'm thinking of THH, where she says, "I don't just give myself to people...and if I do, it isn't like this, all wild and frenzied." Well, of course it takes two to tango, and Maddie has presumably just given as good as she got (ahem!), but it still sounds like she's blaming him a little--if not for the explosive passion, then for his easy acceptance of how it is between them ("Of course you don't see it that way--I'm exactly who you'd want to be with!"). I also agree with Diane that Maddie's lack of faith--in herself, and in David--spurs her flight to Chicago. Look at the laudromat scene: Maddie insists she can't handle the hot/cold nature of there relationship, and David tells her she underestimates herself. It's interesting that as far back as "Read the Mind," David says "I believe in you"; when the chips are down, he is the cheerleader, over and over again. We rarely hear Maddie express the same sentiment--at the end of "Atlas Belched," and perhaps IAWJ. She doesn't really apply it to their personal relationship until "Flesh Made Word" ("It doesn't have to be this way...not if we don't want it to").
|
|
graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
|
Post by graycav56 on Feb 11, 2009 12:50:13 GMT -5
Why didn`t David question Alex or Maddie over everyones assumption on him being the babys father? . Sorry I had to leave so abruptly last night folks, but there was a problem at work and Jack Bauer was otherwise tied up. I agree this bit of (dis)continuity added a bit to the confusion of this thread. I think that because some of these scenes were filmed so far ahead and then mixed in with newer shots that there was bound to be some sort of disconnect. I think that Alex had absolutely no doubt that David was the father. He probably never even ASKED Maddie although I bet he and Virginia thought it over. I would wager that no father would contemplate the situation that Maddie was in, at least not with a daughter so uptight and proper and methodical as she is. Alex just figured, well she is having a baby and the only man Alex knows about is Dave so if P then Q....he's the pop! Of course this doesn't answer your question. Sorry.
|
|
graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
|
Post by graycav56 on Feb 11, 2009 12:56:32 GMT -5
7. There is no question that can do justice to David's declaration on the plane. Just tell us what you absolutely love about it. One of the best pieces of acting ever. I have said many times that season 4 was Bruce's season, and the plane scene is the cherry on top of the cake. First he has a way of pulling into himself when he needs to portray misery...it's a body language thing, and it makes him look lonely and alone, no matter where he is. . And he gets this look......I call it heavy-lidded? (eyelids) in the second plane scene. How does he do that? He is just amazing! Agree entirely. He looked like a man who was completely exhausted, both physically and emotionally. He was ready to accept whatever lay ahead. You see it in the initial moments when Mr. Hayes offers the drink. He really just wanted to be left alone...to think about everything....to think about nothing. But somewhere in the back of his mind a voice screamed for him to give it one more chance. To accept the token of peace from Alex. What did he have to lose?
|
|
|
Post by beesnbears on Feb 11, 2009 12:57:02 GMT -5
When Maddies dad is talking to David in the restaurant and keeps referring to him as the babys father why is it that David never asks Alex "do you know something that i don`t"? I mean how can David know of Maddies confusion over who the father is( she never spoke to David about it) , when she left even she didn`t know she was pregnant. It never ocurred to David that maybe the reason that Maddies father has flown all that way and is telling David to face up to his responsibilities is that Alex knows who the father is because Maddie told them . I think we all are rooting for David during that conversation, same as you!! I believe the reason he just sits there and lets Mr. Hayes lead the conversation is because he is trying to cover for Maddie. He does not know what she has told him about them or if he even knows about Sam. I mean this is his daughter and he does not want to be the one to tell him that she slept with 2 men within 2 days! Would you?!?! And he does not want to make matters worse with her by explaining what has been going on the last month and a half or so. I would think he remembers her saying she felt like everyone was trying to make decisions for her. Mrs. Hayes has a pretty good idea of what is going on, but David doesn't know that either. He doesn't say anything until Mr. Hayes starts to lose his temper (like Maddie) and makes accusations and assumptions(like Gray mentioned) and unfortunately by then it is too late.
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Feb 11, 2009 18:06:31 GMT -5
Hey all! i'm back to continue with the answering! YAY! 3. Is David a "father figure" to the office staff? How do you interpret their reactions in this episode? Daivd i think has always been a father figure to the staff, even before Maddie started i bet, maybe it was more a buddy/father figure in the beginning but once Maddie came into his life he did grow up alittle bit more each year they were together so he definitely matured in the father figure dept and Maddie right away became the Mother to his Father he cals them kids,and Agnes has called them Mom and Dad many times too . The staff looks up to David and respects him alot and well they sure like him alot, ,more then Maddie, but i think they grew to like her as the years went on too. The staff feels like they are losing their HOME so to speak, so they are not happy, they are unsure and nervous of how David is taking care of them since the mother(Maddie) left . 4. Bert and Agnes play small but pivotal roles in this episode. How would you describe their roles in the Blue Moon family? I think B/A are like the older siblings to the staff, they seem to try to corral the office in to believing everything will be alright. They are always on David's side and Maddies too. They always try to help out and always believe in D/M . Well ok Agnes has doubted a couple times of David. They see things D/M dont also. It has been said here by quite a few of you guys that B/A are the opposites of D/M , so true! They are a couple who met at work and found it easy to be a couple together where D/M havent. We wish for D/M to have that but they dont so we can live it through B/A. They are always trying to get D/M together and helping out in that dept. They are like the audience in a way too , we are always rooting for D/M to be together and we see more things then M/D do, like B/A see it too. Ok i've rambled on and made no sense LOL
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 11, 2009 18:27:08 GMT -5
They are like the audience in a way too , we are always rooting for D/M to be together and we see more things then M/D do, like B/A see it too. The audience, yup, they are seeing it like the audience...perfect Rose... the brief yet powerful analyticity in this sentence tweaked some things in my mind. It's like I have a different perspective, a better perspective.
|
|