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Post by beesnbears on Feb 3, 2009 23:41:42 GMT -5
Hee, no problem, bees. I got the feeling over in the "Sam & Dave" thread that you're a big ol' Maddie fangirl, like myself. The poor woman does get a bad rap, doesn't she? I mean--and not to digress too much here--I don't think she's a saint by any means, and I disagree with a lot of the choices she made in seasons four and five. But she's not the she-demon a lot of people (not on these boards, but in the general ML community) see her as. Yes, I am. How could you tell? ;D Actually, I am a huge fan of David's too, but who wouldn't be!! Maybe we will get on to his psychic sometime, somewhere.......
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Post by jpen on Feb 3, 2009 23:43:07 GMT -5
OK, I know I said I was logging out...but just to respond to you, IBM...
I don't think Maddie believes that the past doesn't matter in this case--it matters to David, and it matters to her! However, I do think that she's right in trying to get him to see past his past (ahem--see FMW), to try and take the whole situation--and everyone involved--into account. I agree with lin's analysis, too, that she feels like the Davids have gotten to a better place, and for both their sakes', she doesn't want to see that damaged.
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 3, 2009 23:46:31 GMT -5
I know this post isn't directed at me specifically, but since I've been disagreeing with you an awful lot tonight, IBM, I think it's about time I admit to something:
I'm definitely more of a David in real life, to the extent that I react emotionally, not logically, to difficult situations. (However, I tend to see things from Maddie's viewpoint more readily, as I'm pretty much an uptight worry-wart in most day-to-day situations. But I digress.) What I mean to say is, you're completely right to say that David reacted organically, in a way that was both true to life and true to the person he is. David is fiercely loyal to the people he loves, and I think he felt as if he had betrayed his father, in some way, through his one-night-stand with Stephanie (I'd also wager that he feels pretty bad about enjoying the experience). The past most definitely matters, and I don't fault David for his behavior in the parking garage. It's just that I don't fault Maddie, either.
I love 'em both; I just want 'em to be happy--I'm like the Agnes Dipesto of the real world. ;D
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 3, 2009 23:49:21 GMT -5
OK, I know I said I was logging out...but just to respond to you, IBM... I don't think Maddie believes that the past doesn't matter in this case--it matters to David, and it matters to her! However, I do think that she's right in trying to get him to see past his past (ahem--see FMW), to try and take the whole situation--and everyone involved--into account. I agree with lin's analysis, too, that she feels like the Davids have gotten to a better place, and for both their sakes', she doesn't want to see that damaged. I see. Funny, I thought Maddie didn't try to help David at all. Darn! I can't understand how her brain works, yet. My bad. (?) Thanks, jpen! Sorry I kept you from logging out! Night!
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Post by rose35 on Feb 3, 2009 23:55:45 GMT -5
David was acting like a baby, like it was all about him and Maddie i think had to be the reasonable one and knock him down a few more to make him see ,like hey buster get it together and do this for your dad and forget about the past, the past doesnt matter , and of course he did listen to her eventually and got his head in the game and showed up at her house the next morining looking FINE i must add Excuse me. Just a simple, innocent question: how would you react if you were in David's shoes? Would you still be lucid, calm, objective? I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm the youngest here tonight, or maybe... I don't know what it is, I just know I'd react the very same way!! And another thing: In THIS situation, the past doesn't matter!? Really? Conclusion: it seems I didn't get the message of this episode at all!! I humbly apologize. I mean it. Hey IBM, that what this board is for, different ways to views these episodes and these amazing characters, no right or wrongs here!! David of course was right to react the way he did to finding out who his soon step mom to be was for sure, but what should he have done? Confessed to his fsther? Would that make it better? i dont think so , so i guess Maddie feels he's got to move on then since she knows it would probably break his Dads heart to hear David had a very wild past with his soon to be step- Mom. Maddie of course is the only one who can get thorugh to him . So this is just my opinion too of course!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 0:08:11 GMT -5
Okay PEOPLE!! TIME OUT!!! We are obviously going to disagree on stuff. This would be really boring if we didn't! I am very amused by it all, but I am to pooped to respond to everything right now. So,see you tomorrow. IBM---get some rest over there, okay!!....don't forget about your other "real" homework!! (Love, Maddie Mom )
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 4, 2009 0:14:41 GMT -5
I'm with bees--it's past my bed-time. Thanks to all of you for the awesome discussion--analyze, scrutinize, and fantasize we did. In abundance. We may just have put Dave to shame. ;D
'Til tomorrow, folks--good night.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 4, 2009 0:14:43 GMT -5
I know this post isn't directed at me specifically, but since I've been disagreeing with you an awful lot tonight, IBM, I think it's about time I admit to something: I'm definitely more of a David in real life, to the extent that I react emotionally, not logically, to difficult situations. (However, I tend to see things from Maddie's viewpoint more readily, as I'm pretty much an uptight worry-wart in most day-to-day situations. But I digress.) What I mean to say is, you're completely right to say that David reacted organically, in a way that was both true to life and true to the person he is. David is fiercely loyal to the people he loves, and I think he felt as if he had betrayed his father, in some way, through his one-night-stand with Stephanie (I'd also wager that he feels pretty bad about enjoying the experience). The past most definitely matters, and I don't fault David for his behavior in the parking garage. It's just that I don't fault Maddie, either. I love 'em both; I just want 'em to be happy--I'm like the Agnes Dipesto of the real world. ;D No worries, gorky. I'm the black sheep tonight. All right, I see the point you are making. It's just that I would have expected more EMPATHY and UNDERSTANDING in that garage. I'm not saying Maddie is the bad guy here. THIS is what I'm saying: Maddie is a rational lady, wrong? Well, IMHO, a rational person would NOT have abandoned another person in need so abruptly. I mean, it almost looks like she's running away to not listen to David. Not realizing he needs her advice. He explains, she listens. OK, true! But does she TRY to understand him, in your opinion? Don't you think she was a bit too harsh on him? IMO, there are 2 things going on in the garage: a) Maddie doesn't want to listen to David's "wild adventure", because it makes her crazy, but she has to listen anyway against her will (again: SMART MOVE, DAVE! What a wise thing to give her details!); b) David is not lucid about Steph and his father. He doesn't know what to do. He would need someone to help him figure it out. That someone should be Maddie! BUT Maddie herself is too upset, because she had to listen to the "there once was an itchiest son of a pup in South Philadelphia" story. Sooo, Maddie is NOT the only one who's reacting emotionally here! Just a thought, of course! ...This episode puzzles me.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 4, 2009 0:17:25 GMT -5
2. What do you think of Maddie’s little smile when she awakens? Contrast this look with the look she has when she enters the office after the wobblies. Maddie's look to me says..." Let the fun began!"...she is obviously excited about returning to Bluemoon, not only because of her staunch work ethic but she enjoys being around everyone there, especially Mr. U_Know_Who. Maddie's not accustom to being away from David for so long and she has this anticipation about what this next phase of their relationship will bring. The contrast is that the wobblies are not as excited to see her as she is excited to see them. Although David has more interaction with the employees, she still feels a sense of entitlement to be "welcomed home" cheerfully as their "gainful employer". I also agree with another poster who spoke about the same reaction to Agnes, like they were uninterested with her vacation and therefore her; this is usually how the "teacher's pet" is treated. I feel that's how they view Agnes, as the favorite...and she is, for both David and Maddie. Although they sarcastically say in another episode that they depend on her, Maddie and David really do. Agnes' loyalty has earned her the right to be held in higher esteem then the rest, after all, until Bert came...she was the only one that actually worked. Even if it was just keeping David and Maddie in check with each other with her seemingly dense responses. Agnes' child like demeanor often disarms them both (M&D) when they become irrational and wanna break up the family.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 4, 2009 0:42:20 GMT -5
Hey IBM, that what this board is for, different ways to views these episodes and these amazing characters, no right or wrongs here!! David of course was right to react the way he did to finding out who his soon step mom to be was for sure, but what should he have done? Confessed to his fsther? Would that make it better? i dont think so , so i guess Maddie feels he's got to move on then since she knows it would probably break his Dads heart to hear David had a very wild past with his soon to be step- Mom. Maddie of course is the only one who can get thorugh to him . So this is just my opinion too of course! Yes I know, Rose! But the fact that everybody thinks David is a jerk just honestly, truly, head-over-heels, baffles me. And that's another thing: is David truly the bad guy, here? What 'bout daddy? If this guy is really so serious, reliable, yada yada yada, can marrying a gal who is (supposedly) 20+ YEARS YOUNGER THAN HIM be considered an adult thing to do? Is that normal, I ask you? No, really! What's your take? Why should David jr. apologize? He is young, he had a good time with Steph. Sooo? What's wrong with that? Really, I'm shocked!! Hasn't anybody else noticed it? How odd and paradoxical the situation is? David jr. having to apologize for HIS behavior? My opinion on the whole thing is that David jr. is the best of the Addison bunch. And this is my juvenile, humble, honest opinion, gang. Just my opinion.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 4, 2009 0:42:54 GMT -5
4. What do you make of David flat out lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father? And why do you think Maddie let him continue in his little charade for so long before calling his hand? This is such a great question, they all are, but I'm particularly fond of this one because it really tells a great deal about David and Maddie's relationship...it's built on lies! Not the lies of deception to misguide but the lies they tell each other to cover their weakness from one another. (Like the lie Maddie tells about Wally not being available to pick her up from the office for lunch in EHGM. Maddie knew Wally was a liability instead of a formidable foe for David) Maddie and David always desire to appear unscathed by life, like they have all the answers but they know each other too well. They can detect when somethings not right with the other, even when the exact truth about the other is elusive, they still know what the truth isn't. Therefore, leading into the question regarding why Maddie let David's lie go on for a while...she gave him an out but he decided to lie anyway. So, because David refused to tell her the truth, Maddie allowed him to tell the lie, then busted it wide in his face and from his reaction...the truth was revealed. We often speak about the absence of words to express themselves but another asset these two posses when it comes to one another is reading between the lines. I feel Maddie let it go on to understand why David was avoiding his father. Also, Maddie wanted to soften the blow of his father actually waiting in David's office. Maddie didn't want him to be surprised, she had to warn him. It would have been like a betrayal of sorts because she knew David Sr was waiting. Maddie realized by the time David began to lie that there had to be some deep seeded issue within regarding his relationship with David Sr. Maddie couldn't let him be ambushed , she gave David Jr. time to get it together.
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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 4, 2009 0:48:43 GMT -5
Hee, no problem, bees. I got the feeling over in the "Sam & Dave" thread that you're a big ol' Maddie fangirl, like myself. The poor woman does get a bad rap, doesn't she? I mean--and not to digress too much here--I don't think she's a saint by any means, and I disagree with a lot of the choices she made in seasons four and five. But she's not the she-demon a lot of people (not on these boards, but in the general ML community) see her as. Yes, I am. How could you tell? ;D Actually, I am a huge fan of David's too, but who wouldn't be!! Maybe we will get on to his psychic sometime, somewhere....... I NEVER EVER in my entire life said or thought Maddie is a demon, gang! ;D Let it be clear!!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 4, 2009 1:08:11 GMT -5
Wowee!! Okay, here is my little gift to you. It's gonna make you rethink a few things..... I happen to own the script to this episode and thought some of you would like to read some of the small little scenes they left out. Bees, I can honestly say, that in over 3 decades of me walking this earth...I have NEVER been envious of another person in my life....until this very moment! I'm soaking my eyeballs now, hopefully the green will leave... bringing back my true, beautiful, baby brown eyes that regularly reside there. You are officially my hero, LOL! Lucky...no, luck just doesn't cover this, Blessed 'essed! P.S.~Yes, the soaking of my eyes is an analogy for the many tears falling from them because I don't own a copy of at least one of these scripts. I'm going out in the cold now to cuss and cry, so nobody can see or hear me! I've heard you never know what you would truly do for something you really desire; I just got a real wake up call about what I'd do and how far I would go ...LMAO (maniacally)
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Post by jpen on Feb 4, 2009 1:19:39 GMT -5
It's just that I would have expected more EMPATHY and UNDERSTANDING in that garage. I'm not saying Maddie is the bad guy here. THIS is what I'm saying: Maddie is a rational lady, wrong? Well, IMHO, a rational person would NOT have abandoned another person in need so abruptly. I mean, it almost looks like she's running away to not listen to David. Not realizing he needs her advice. He explains, she listens. OK, true! But does she TRY to understand him, in your opinion? Don't you think she was a bit too harsh on him? Just a thought, of course! ...This episode puzzles me. First of all, IBM, I love how you fight (respectfully and intelligently) for your point of view--you have the courage of your convictions, and I really respect that! And it's interesting that you bring this up...when I was talking earlier about the two choices Maddie has in the bathroom scene (i.e. to be empathetic or to be angry), I realized how much I wished we had seen her kneel down in front of him (as he does to her in BoB) and really try to connect with him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're having the same feeling about the garage. I also realized how often, I'm a little ashamed to admit, I have made the "angry" choice in those types of situations in my own life. Being empathetic is TOUGH--it means putting aside all of your own "stuff" to really focus in on the other person's needs. Maddie's not able to do it here, and David isn't ultimately able to do it in BoB...it doesn't make either of them bad people, just very, very human. And their humanity, their real-ness, is what makes us sit around until all hours talking about them, and also what makes us feel connected to them. Great posts as always, IBM, and I'm still hopin' to hear the fruit of your research on the title! (But no pressure, of course )
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Post by jpen on Feb 4, 2009 1:25:27 GMT -5
IMO, there are 2 things going on in the garage: a) Maddie doesn't want to listen to David's "wild adventure", because it makes her crazy, but she has to listen anyway against her will (again: SMART MOVE, DAVE! What a wise thing to give her details!); b) David is not lucid about Steph and his father. He doesn't know what to do. He would need someone to help him figure it out. That someone should be Maddie! BUT Maddie herself is too upset, because she had to listen to the "there once was an itchiest son of a pup in South Philadelphia" story. Sooo, Maddie is NOT the only one who's reacting emotionally here! Just a thought, of course! ...This episode puzzles me. Sorry, IBM, just saw the rest of this post...and totally agree. They are BOTH reacting emotionally, and Maddie's emotion prevents her from reaching out to David--it blocks her ability to be empathetic. OK, now I'm really goin' to bed! G'night, all!
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