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Post by italianbluemooner on Feb 4, 2009 1:30:39 GMT -5
First of all, IBM, I love how you fight (respectfully and intelligently) for your point of view--you have the courage of your convictions, and I really respect that! And it's interesting that you bring this up...when I was talking earlier about the two choices Maddie has in the bathroom scene (i.e. to be empathetic or to be angry), I realized how much I wished we had seen her kneel down in front of him (as he does to her in BoB) and really try to connect with him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're having the same feeling about the garage. I also realized how often, I'm a little ashamed to admit, I have made the "angry" choice in those types of situations in my own life. Being empathetic is TOUGH--it means putting aside all of your own "stuff" to really focus in on the other person's needs. Maddie's not able to do it here, and David isn't ultimately able to do it in BoB...it doesn't make either of them bad people, just very, very human. And their humanity, their real-ness, is what makes us sit around until all hours talking about them, and also what makes us feel connected to them. Great posts as always, IBM, and I'm still hopin' to hear the fruit of your research on the title! (But no pressure, of course ) Thank you, jpen! I'm stubborn, you know... ;D I HAVE to be. And yes, I don't mean to offend anybody AT ALL, here. You are all smart people and you have my wholehearted respect!! I also don't mean to convince anybody. I just.... WANT TO UNDERSTAND!!!!!!And it is my perception I'm not getting anything here, tonight! Yes I read your (wonderful!) post on the bathroom scene (i.e. being angry vs being empathetic), and yes, I think Maddie had a huge choice in that garage. Upset or empathetic? Judgmental or loving? We are aware of her choice. Being empathetic is TOUGH, you think. Maybe THIS is what I truly don't understand.
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 4, 2009 2:13:58 GMT -5
Alright...I've been doing homework and really couldn't get in to see what was going on here...leave you kids for a short while and all "h" breaks loose. I've read every post on the board this evening and I believe they are all very fine points and opinions (which are like {you know what} we all have them and they all stink) saying that, I propose a solution to these burning questions... is David a jerk? Or is it Maddie? Or is it David Sr? Now it's time for a "Str-8 Poop" session amongst the 'essed! IBM'r, Gorky, Jpen, Rosey, all the rest of the gang including me...let's meet half way. The best way to open up to others point of view is to put ourselves in there shoes. So, the addendum that I propose in to this line of questions, if you don't mind Bees are these. What would you do if you were in David's shoes? What would you do if you were in Maddie's shoes? What would you do if you were in David Sr.'s shoes? My answers are as followed~ What would you do if you were in David's shoes?If I were David, I would be freaking out big time! I would wonder of all the bar skanks in Philly, how I tapped the same one that my father is marrying a few years later. Would I feel guilty, he** yes, because I probably wouldn't have said anything. Is that right? No, but I would have freaked so much that I probably would have faked being sick or something to avoid going to the Wedding entirely. Is that adult? No, but like I said, it would freak me out and basically it doesn't fix anything because I would have really been avoiding my father and now his wife as well. What would you do if you were in Maddie's shoes?If I were in Maddie's place, I would address David the same way. Your real friends are honest with you, even when repulsed by your actions. I would have been a real friend to David by pointing him in the right direction because as Maddie... I know David and see that this, on top of the already strained Father/Son relationship; guidance and real talk is necessary to get him to step up to relax the strain on the family relationship. A real friend knows the impact an event will have on your life and emotional decisions, hasty decisions can widen the gap in an already "dysfunctional" existence. What would you do if you were in David Sr.'s shoes?I would have been utterly confused as David Sr. obviously is...and as a parent, I understand the feeling of not understanding your child's actions because you don't know the whole story. I just know my child is acting out of character. Also as a parent and a daughter, there is the notion that although your child is grown, respect is due and therefore obedience to a certain degree. As David Sr, I would think that David Jr is rebelling because he can't deal with the me having a woman besides his mother. This is an assumption of course, but that's the conclusion I would possibly come to...it seems so unfair and selfish on the part of Jr. Now, everyone come to the center...What do you have to say to each other? That's right, I'm sorry ...we respect everyone's opinion that's what makes us a greatly Blessed 'essed family. And like family, we sometimes disagree yet as the great family we are...we still love, respect and honor each others opinion and agree to disagree. Love to all and see you on the boards later
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gorky
1st Level
Posts: 72
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Post by gorky on Feb 4, 2009 6:39:38 GMT -5
Like jpen said, Maddie's certainly not too empathetic to David in the garage. And I don't think she necessarily understands why David is so tormented--and she certainly doesn't want to give too much thought to his night-o'-passion with Stephanie--which makes it difficult for her to truly comfort him. I think Maddie's viewing the situation (of course) logically: she thinks David should just deal with it and be there for his father, because that's the right thing to do. So I think that, ultimately, Maddie's perceived lack of emotion is what really helped David out. Would it have been nice to see her treating him a bit more softly? Sure. But I think Maddie recognized that the real problem here was David shirking his son-ly duties.
As for sinceifell4u's questions:
What would you do if you were in David's shoes?
I would freak. Out. Like you wouldn't believe. I think I'd be deaf to reason, instead choosing to wallow in self-pity, guilt, and disgust. I'd have a hard time keeping my little liason from my namesake, but I think I'd ultimately confide in someone (a best friend, someone like Maddie), and hope they could give me some advice on how to proceed. I'd probably end up doing the "right" thing, by going to the wedding. I don't think I would have confronted the bride-to-be, though; I wouldn't have had the nerve.
What would you do if you were in Maddie's shoes?
I'd probably show more empathy towards David, at least when he's holed up in the bathroom. As for that garage scene, though? I think I'd be a little disturbed, and probably not too capable of offering any great advice. I would hear David out completely, though, and try to make him see (as Maddie does) that the wedding--and David's presence at it--is ultimately what's important.
What would you do if you were in David Sr.'s shoes?
I'd be irked by David Jr.'s behavior at the party, but I think I would have offered to hear him out, if he'd be willing to explain what has him so upset.
Sorry for the brief answers, folks, but I've gotta get going. I trust the conversation will still be going strong when I get back this afternoon? ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 9:30:59 GMT -5
Welcome, gorky! Great to see you here--I've really enjoyed your posts on other threads...and I agree. Maddie definitely didn't have any "big adventures" in New York, and though David says he & Mexico go together like "Montezuma & Revenge" (what a picture!), somehow I think this trip was probably different for him...I picture him, on the beach, watching all the little "gringettes" walk by and thinking how none of them can hold a candle to a certain honey blonde... ;... Yeah, I think he laid around on the beach for maybe one day and then came home, too!! LOL!! I guess that little scene in the script that they left out doesn't really count because it is not "real", but I doubt that he had the usual Addison party in Mexico.......he doesn't return to work looking hung over, does he? ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:02:50 GMT -5
7. Once Maddie fully understood what the situation was with David and Stephanie, do you feel she was sympathetic and really tried to help him through this crisis of his or do you think she just did not understand him?
What was her motivation for telling David he was being selfish, inconsiderate and childish? This question has gotten everyone all passionate about our heroes, hasn't it??!! Well, I for one love it!! Anyone ever had a really close friend that needed a good swift kick in the old bee-hind??!! I think that is what Maddie was trying to do for David. Was she jealous of David's little escapade with Stephanie 4 yrs. ago. I don't think so. Maybe she did not want to hear about all of the pores on her body But, I think she was just trying to understand what was going on. In the bathroom scene, she was embarrassed by David's behavior and acted how we would probably react in that situation. And she was making a WHOLE lot of racket outside that door, wasn't she??!! LOL!! But, once she comes in she does see how distraught David is and she knows there are issues with his Dad that need to be resolved. She even recommends therapy!! Maddie was reacting emotionally in that scene as well. David yelled at her and told her to butt out.....this would make anyone angry. But, she stayed when he asked her to, didn't she? Why did she leave at the end? Again, she reacted emotionally. She just could not fathom the reason for David's behavior!! I sure would not have any guessed anything like what was going on with him!! Does she feel bad about leaving him there? Sure she does. She stays late at work, calling him, Agnes calling him. AND, she is thinking about David's family and how his relationships with Richie and his father seem so fragile. Then she finds him in the garage. I thought she was very sympathetic towards him at that point. She really wanted to know and understand what was going on!! So she finally gets David to talk. Boy, she was not expecting what she heard, was she??!! LOL!! We have been putting ourselves in everyones shoes....how would you react if the person closest to you told you what David told Maddie?? Again she reacts like Maddie reacts....like a lot of us would react....but then, she sees that he needs to get through this situation because she knows he loves his Dad and would have regrets later. Hence, the swift kick in the pants!! And like someone else said----it worked!! Now sing along with me....That's what friends are for....... ;D
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:06:09 GMT -5
8. What are your thoughts as to the meaning of the title of this episode?I think it's dirty as sin. ;D But it sure is clever. I love all the episode titles--it seems like a lot of thought went into them. Just more proof that GGC and Co. were dedicated to making these episodes as enjoyable, thought-provoking, and multi-faceted as possible. All while making us giggle, of course... Very clever indeed!! It can mean so many different things!! Guess that is why it got past the censors!!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:07:47 GMT -5
1. What, if any, is the importance of showing an empty Blue Moon office and Agnes entering before everyone else on the first day back from vacation? I think it was inspired. It linked the audience to the cast in yet another way. How could Blue Moon continue without the fans there to watch? If you weren’t there to gaze upon the shenanigans the, gosh darn it….it’s time for VACATION! This is exactly what I thought graycav!!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:14:31 GMT -5
[b Now, personally, I'm not sure that she is so upset because she feels that David's actions are sleazy. I think she is more bothered by the fact that the connection David felt with Stephanie was so intense ("This was one of THOSE nights...I know every pore on that woman's..." etc.)--her reaction ratchets up after he tells her all that. And, in fact, I would argue that she accuses him of being selfish, inconsiderate, and childish not only because of his behavior toward his father; on a deeper level (and again, probably subconsciously), Maddie is castigating his behavior toward HER. It was selfish, inconsiderate, and childish of him to describe in detail an amazing night he had with another woman--if she is going to allow him into her heart, she doesn't want to know about the other woman he's been with--she wants to be the first, the only, and the MOST (and don't we all feel that way about the people we love?). OK, sorry for running on...but dang, I feel better--I've just downloaded four hours' worth of ruminating! ;D Very well put, jpen. Once she fully grasps what is going on, there are a million things going through her brain!! She knows David has to get past it....and she has to get past it!!LOL!!
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graycav56
3rd Level
I can't imagine not rewatching with you next week.
Posts: 948
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Post by graycav56 on Feb 4, 2009 10:17:23 GMT -5
What would you do if you were in David's shoes? What would you do if you were in Maddie's shoes? What would you do if you were in David Sr.'s shoes? Sinceifell4u stole my answers! Quit looking at my paper! Bar skank? Golly! But there WAS this one young thing that I met at a tavern in King of Prussia back in '86......
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:18:13 GMT -5
"Mortification is her default emotion in David's presence"--gorkyGenius. Gorky, I nominate you to write the "Pithy observations about ML"-a-Day calendar! ;D EXACTLY!! She reacts emotionally and then reconsiders all of the time!!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:28:21 GMT -5
5. David makes this comment at the pre-wedding reception about the age of his father’s future wife: “I don’t know. Richie and I were young and he was never interested in us.”
We discussed David and his brother Richie’s relationship last week. Knowing what we know about those two and this telling comment, what inferences/speculations can we make about the relationship between all three of them?
The way David is so uncomfortable around his father, what type of relationship do you think they have? You know, this situation is not all that different from a lot of us growing up in the 50s and 60s. Fathers worked and mom’s didn’t. Especially in traditional catholic households. Gender roles were well defined. The Dad laid down the rules and the Mom helped enforce them. If you had a boo boo, well Mom let you cry and then you sucked it up and went back out to play.
I will go on a tangent. Many fathers of this era were World War II veterans. They had seen so much horror, so much devastation and lost so many dear friends that they sometimes held back at making close emotional contact with others after the war. Often this included family as well. It wouldn’t be until later in life that they started opening up and allowing, say their sons, to feel an emotional bond with them similar to that they held with their comrades in arms.
Yeah, this is the same kinda thing I had with my Dad, bless his soul, although he and I never had a falling out or stopped talking like Dave. He was a great guy….and yes, I have tears in my eyes right now. See, this is why we need graycav!! My relationship with my father was much like this, too. He has mellowed over the years, but he was much tougher on my brothers!! All I had to do was observe that and it kept me from getting into trouble!! Thanks for sharing gray!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Feb 4, 2009 10:31:51 GMT -5
What would you do if you were in David's shoes? What would you do if you were in Maddie's shoes? What would you do if you were in David Sr.'s shoes? Sinceifell4u stole my answers! Quit looking at my paper! Bar skank? Golly! But there WAS this one young thing that I met at a tavern in King of Prussia back in '86...... ROTFLMAO, Grav my man, you alright with me, lol!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:32:15 GMT -5
4) David lying to Maddie about spending the evening with his father - I believe that this scene is a turning point in their relationship. We see David with his game face on. He wants Maddie to believe that everything is great, that he is foot loose and fancy free, with no baggage and not a care in the world. When Maddie tells him that his father is in his office, it's as if the entire facade falls away. Apparently, David has some painful memories of his youth and his relationship with his father and he allows Maddie to see that part of him. I agree, lin212!! A great scene or what!!
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:39:51 GMT -5
I love love how some of you have "connected the dots" with this ep and BOB!! ....I need one of ibm's yellow guys for you right......here!! This will have to do.......
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Post by beesnbears on Feb 4, 2009 10:49:59 GMT -5
Somehow David strikes me as the one who was always getting in trouble and exasperating dear old Dad. Yes--particularly with Tess (though we're not supposed to know that yet)...as others have mentioned, he seems to feel like he can't live up to his dad's expectations, and so it's easier just to have no contact at all with him. Hey--wait a minute--it's another permutation of the Avoidance game! Seriously, though, it's interesting that David is still reluctant to see his father, even when he has the trappings, at least, of a successful life: posh office, elegant partner, living in "glamorous" L.A....and yet in their exchange in David's office, it's clearly David Sr. who is more nervous and tentative (as though seeing David intimidates him)...hmmm, I'm gonna have to think about this one for awhile! It's amazing how even as we get older we always seek or desire the approval of our parents!! We sometimes will act like we don't care....but ultimately we do!! Not trying to put thoughts, words or opinions in place for everyone, but I do feel this way at times! And while we are talking about age and growing up and maturing. When I was 25 or so watching ML for the first time, believe it or not, I would actually get MAD at Maddie at times!! As I have gotten older....and wiser...HA!!... I have grown to understand her so much more. And David, as well! So, Ms. IBM, yes you are the young one here, but your opinions do count and we want to hear them!! But, don't be suprised that in 20 yrs. or so your convictions about some things in your life will have changed or evolved!!! And that is a good thing!!!
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