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Post by rose35 on Jan 13, 2009 22:58:15 GMT -5
hey all! I've been busy with family life, making dinner(oh IBM we had LENTILS LOL), waiting for mom to get home in a snow storm, and dealing with my cranky kids. I'm off now to read the quesutions and see what i can answer
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Post by rose35 on Jan 13, 2009 23:11:38 GMT -5
This is a really great season 5 episode, all except the crazy nightmare part, which i think i fowarded through. It is also very slapstick ML too.
1. In this episode Maddie has to confront the concepts of death and mortality. Judging by her statements, what are Maddie's priorities in life?
Well We have been made to beleive that maddie doesnt beleive in God so we find she doesnt beleive death is easy, or peaceful as some put it. I believe she is afraid of it and knows it's final, shes not a believer of the afterlife. She seems to be afraid of this dead person in her office , but she has seen other dead people before in this business ,but why is this one bothering her? Is it simply because the man died on his own and of course right in her office, he wasnt chased down and shot in some case they worked on, so does that make it different? I think maybe so. Also maddie has also been dealt a blow in her life recently, by losing her( & davids) baby. I think this is still so new and how can it not affect how you feel about death. I think she feels she doesnt need to think about that part of life and she just goes on living her life the way she does alot of the time , in total DENIAL!
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Post by jpen on Jan 13, 2009 23:48:03 GMT -5
Hi all! Sorry to be late to the party...like rose, I've been on mommy duty tonight! First, I'd like to say, amazing preparation and background info, IBMer!! You've gone above and beyond the ol' call of duty...the "Harry" info was particularly interesting...I hadn't made that connection. Anyway... 1. What are Maddie's priorities? Well, she makes it quite clear that she does not believe (or doesn't want to believe) that there is any reward for us in the hereafter...she has to make this life count, "because it's the only life I'm going to have." This explains her drive for success, to feel that she's "accomplished" something. What's a little frustrating here, IMO, is that she still equates success with her career and business life, rather than with her relationships...and so we are back to Seasons 1-2.
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Post by rose35 on Jan 13, 2009 23:53:21 GMT -5
In the light of that little essay about dream symbolism, what's your interpretation of Maddie's nightmare?
In particular: why is David the Grim Reaper?
Ok what can i say about this scene, i seem to fast forward through this dream sequence most of the time and did so during my last viewing of this episode last week. why? Well it bothers me. Its very weird,dark,and David as the grim reaper bothers me, it also went on way too long too! Maddie is afraid of death, that we know. She avoids it,like she avoids alot of other stuff(DAVID). She is happy in her little safe cocoon of life. But Harry dying in her office freaked her out, It's definitely on her mind and of course how can you not be bothered by it even once you go to sleep.it shows up in nightmare form but she seems to be the one in the coffin, and who is there to close it? DAVID? Ok why David as the GR? Dont know for sure. Is it because she is afraid of him the most in her life,hmm i think so. SHes afraid what being with him does to her and her life. Like she cant trust him and i do hate this of maddie especially AFTER being together for 5 years ,i think you can trust this man with your whole heart and soul,but Madde doesnt do that.
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Post by jpen on Jan 13, 2009 23:54:01 GMT -5
2. How does Maddie relate to the concept of death? As others have pointed out, and as the nightmare vividly depicts, Maddie is afraid of death precisely because she fears (not necessarily truly believes) that it is final...nothing, nada, the big goose egg. While David clearly finds comfort in the idea of heaven, rational, practical Maddie can't (or won't) subscribe to that (though I think, in their car conversation, she finds his picture of the afterlife kinda charming . One thing to remember about Maddie: she likes guarantees. I get the sense that she doesn't want to take the risk of believing in something that MIGHT turn out to be wrong or not exist (almost as if she doesn't want to get her hopes up). It's easier to hedge her bets by believing in nothing (or saying she does, anyway).
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Post by jpen on Jan 13, 2009 23:59:26 GMT -5
3. The nightmare: I've actually got a longish answer for this one, but I'm pretty knackered right now. I think I'll come back to it in the a.m.... Hey, IBM, thanks again for all your hard work. See y'all tomorrow!
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Post by maddieaddisonjr on Jan 14, 2009 0:52:09 GMT -5
I haven't rewatched this yet. Classes have started again and things are mad crazy at work. What I do remember is disliking the weird dream sequence in this with an absolute passion. Seriously, what was that? Not Moonlighting that's for sure. I just don't get it. Anyway, if folks can get past the ugh to actually analyze the dream then more power to ya!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 2:35:42 GMT -5
5. The title of this episode is a paraphrase of a child's taunt, "I See England, I See France, I See (name's) Underpants."
'Netherworld' suggests something vaguely similar - 'nether regions' means roughly the part of the body, front and back, covered by underpants; though netherworld itself actually means hell or the underworld. So it's quite a clever-sounding title!
The question is: Is someone taunting Maddie here? If so, why and in what way?I love this episode for reasons not as deep as others, simply because the camaraderie between Bruce and Cybill are evident. I see the fun and joy they have while performing it, giving me great hope for David and Maddie. Yet...the above question sparked a sense of the simplistic Maddie Hayes way of thinking in me; speaking particularly about her need to control and her fear of intimacy. The nether region explanation above divulges an esoteric explanation to us for the netherworld/nether region synonymally being thus... the area which is covered by our undies is the root chakra: The place of life and death, heaven and hell! The root chakra is located at the base of the spine, the perineum between our sexual organs and anus. "This chakra is related to survival, our body and identity as an individual. Our health, constitution and security including material wealth..." {1} (you'll also find something interesting about its association with the color red) www.chakra-colors.com/Root-Chakra/index.php {1} www.kundaliniyoga.org/chakra1.htmlhealing.about.com/cs/chakras/a/chakra1.htmwww.healer.ch/rootchakra.htmlNow, we all know that Maddie's need for security controls the fact that she is afraid to relinquish herself to David because her genuine basic feeling is... he is unreliable. How could she trust her personal, emotional and material security to someone who defies her understanding of the word? The only person Maddie can rely on, she feels, is Maddie. Yet she often, in relation to David, makes choices that place them both between a rock and a hard place; due to the fact that she truly loves him. ( ::)I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out) Also, I reference the location of the root chakra again being between the sexual organ and the anus. These are the most sensitive parts of our bodies, the height of our physical feeling and pleasure. This corner stone of all intimacy is, for some reason, very connected to the heart...meaning the feeling of love. It is a spiritual vs. physical tug-of-war all around for her because loving him goes against her core feeling of individuality, strength and security. The passion (love) she feels for him combined with the sexual tension (physical) vs. her personal value system (spiritual) is the driving force of her confusion...there is a battle for control in the same region...a civil war of sorts. We all know that together we will stand for something but divided we will fall for anything...Maddie is divided within herself, producing utter confusion, which in turn produces consciously bad choices. As if she is attacking herself for going against what she has believed for so long, it's self sabotage! My example of a conscious choice: Maddie practically admits to Wally that she has attempted to eliminate and don't quote me, the possibility of David destroying her life, through her marriage to Wally. Not her life in daily living... but life as she knew it in her core being for so long. So after saying all that, Maddie is taunting Maddie...you only meet you! Nothing outside of you can affect you Ok, I'm stepping down from my soap box now...
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 2:36:43 GMT -5
Oh & big ups to IBM, great work GyrlY~
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Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 10:17:23 GMT -5
WOW Sinceifellforu! What a post! You and our IBM are really deep people and way to go on doing more research into the meanings of this episode. I will say i never fully understood what alot of things mean in these episodes when i was younger but as i've gotten older and found all you smart wonderful people on this board you all sure shed lots of light on this show! I think youre explanation is so great! Thats our Maddie all right! Now i must get to finish my answers soon 5. The title of this episode is a paraphrase of a child's taunt, "I See England, I See France, I See (name's) Underpants." 'Netherworld' suggests something vaguely similar - 'nether regions' means roughly the part of the body, front and back, covered by underpants; though netherworld itself actually means hell or the underworld. So it's quite a clever-sounding title! The question is: Is someone taunting Maddie here? If so, why and in what way?I love this episode for reasons not as deep as others, simply because the camaraderie between Bruce and Cybill are evident. I see the fun and joy they have while performing it, giving me great hope for David and Maddie. Yet...the above question sparked a sense of the simplistic Maddie Hayes way of thinking in me; speaking particularly about her need to control and her fear of intimacy. Now, we all know that Maddie's need for security controls the fact that she is afraid to relinquish herself to David because her genuine basic feeling is... he is unreliable. How could she trust her personal, emotional and material security to someone who defies her understanding of the word? The only person Maddie can rely on, she feels, is Maddie. Yet she often, in relation to David, makes choices that place them both between a rock and a hard place; due to the fact that she truly loves him. ( ::)I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out) The passion (love) she feels for him combined with the sexual tension (physical) vs. her personal value system (spiritual) is the driving force of her confusion...there is a battle for control in the same region...a civil war of sorts. We all know that together we will stand for something but divided we will fall for anything...Maddie is divided within herself, producing utter confusion, which in turn produces consciously bad choices. So after saying all that, Maddie is taunting Maddie...you only meet you! Nothing outside of you can affect you
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Post by lin212 on Jan 14, 2009 12:31:10 GMT -5
Sorry to say that I am with maddieaddisonjr on this one. I dislike the nightmare scene so much that I cannot watch it, never mind analyze it. I only watched it once and have fast forwarded through it every other time. It's down right creepy!!
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 15:52:22 GMT -5
WOW Sinceifellforu! What a post! You and our IBM are really deep people and way to go on doing more research into the meanings of this episode. I will say i never fully understood what alot of things mean in these episodes when i was younger but as i've gotten older and found all you smart wonderful people on this board you all sure shed lots of light on this show! I think youre explanation is so great! Thats our Maddie all right! Now i must get to finish my answers soon 5. The title of this episode is a paraphrase of a child's taunt, "I See England, I See France, I See (name's) Underpants." 'Netherworld' suggests something vaguely similar - 'nether regions' means roughly the part of the body, front and back, covered by underpants; though netherworld itself actually means hell or the underworld. So it's quite a clever-sounding title! The question is: Is someone taunting Maddie here? If so, why and in what way?I love this episode for reasons not as deep as others, simply because the camaraderie between Bruce and Cybill are evident. I see the fun and joy they have while performing it, giving me great hope for David and Maddie. Yet...the above question sparked a sense of the simplistic Maddie Hayes way of thinking in me; speaking particularly about her need to control and her fear of intimacy. Now, we all know that Maddie's need for security controls the fact that she is afraid to relinquish herself to David because her genuine basic feeling is... he is unreliable. How could she trust her personal, emotional and material security to someone who defies her understanding of the word? The only person Maddie can rely on, she feels, is Maddie. Yet she often, in relation to David, makes choices that place them both between a rock and a hard place; due to the fact that she truly loves him. ( ::)I know that sounds crazy, but hear me out) The passion (love) she feels for him combined with the sexual tension (physical) vs. her personal value system (spiritual) is the driving force of her confusion...there is a battle for control in the same region...a civil war of sorts. We all know that together we will stand for something but divided we will fall for anything...Maddie is divided within herself, producing utter confusion, which in turn produces consciously bad choices. So after saying all that, Maddie is taunting Maddie...you only meet you! Nothing outside of you can affect you Thanks Rose! ;D You Guys have been a wonderfully, great inspiration to me....finally a supportive outlet for my closeted love affair with ML, lol......I think I hear Diana Ross welcoming me to the party...."I'm...Comin'....Out" Smooches
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Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 15:57:28 GMT -5
Where is everybody tonight? ? Oh well, I'm having fun! David’s last wishes: I David, being of sound mind and body, hereby leave all of my worldly possessions to Richie, my brother, as I know Madelyn Hayes will not want any of my stuff. And since my mind AND body are sound I do hereby request that, before I am returned to this earth, Ms. Hayes re-enact the shower scene with extra soap. Clothing not needed and panty hose optional. I so would like to know what they really put on that paper……. Priceless, I can definitely see this, lol Beesnbears, lol
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Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 16:03:23 GMT -5
6. Bonus question: What do you think David's last wishes were? ROFL hmm David last wishes? I sure wish we could have seen that list. Well maybe he asked for his favorite foods for dinner LOL Or dessert or wine or LOL Ok we know Davids last wishes were all in a sexual regard LOL He so wanted to recreate the IAC.....M scene Dont you think? So David sure made lots of sexual innuendos/advances to Maddie in this episode didnt he? From the roll around naked on the carpet with me, too the shower scene and the shampoo and the want a cigerette?, to the will you unzip me? LOL So were they trying to make sexual tension between them again with all Davids innuendos or was David hoping Maddie would take him up on it? I think all along David wanted things to be intimate between them again because he truly loves her but maddie didnt show the interest back. GRRRR LOL
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Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 16:08:43 GMT -5
Well, I still don't enjoy the nightmare scene, but thanks to IBMs research, at least I understand it better!!
I find it interesting that, as suggested by this dream analysis, the overarching themes of the nightmare seem to be repression, depression, and loss. Of course, we all know that Maddie is an "avoider;" this quality was the principal obstacle in her relationship with David and also is the main source of her dream: she has repressed her fears about death and so they come out here.
But the depression and loss themes are more complex and intriguing, I think. One loss Maddie has suffered is David's presence as a potential or actual romantic partner. In spite of the kiss at the end of "Take My Wife," their relationship does not look like it's going to be rekindled. Maddie may still be conflicted about exactly where she wants it to go, but nonetheless, the fact that they are "pals" is clearly not fulfilling for her. She still loves him, IMO (look at her when he says "It wouldn't be heaven without you"), and misses what they had, as confusing and crazy as it was.
The other significant loss she's suffered is obviously the death of her child. On one level, one of the most frustrating scenes of this entire season for me is the conversation in the car. (In and of itself, I actually find the scene charming, and love the little sparks that fly; but considered from a continuity standpoint, it drives me nuts.) When I first watched it, I remember feeling a little appalled that the writers would craft a lighthearted conversation about death that avoided any mention of--avoided even the appearance of avoiding--the most profound, devastating loss these two people had experienced. Based on the way the scene goes, you would never know that either of them had been closer to death than Harry and David's grandfather.
However, looking at the dream analysis, I'm ready to give the writers (at least Chris Ruppenthal) a little more credit. The profusion of images that suggest pain and mourning, and the repression of those feelings, can't be accidental, and I'm willing to take the leap and believe that they were purposely crafted to refer to the loss of the baby.
The only problem? It's pretty darn subtle...in fact, if you have to go rooting around in Mr. Freud's oeuvre in order to make the connection, maybe it's too subtle. A healthy dose of M & D hand-holding and glancing meaningfully at each other might have met the case more appropriately, IMO.
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