|
Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 16:15:26 GMT -5
So David sure made lots of sexual innuendos/advances to Maddie in this episode didnt he? From the roll around naked on the carpet with me, too the shower scene and the shampoo and the want a cigerette?, to the will you unzip me? LOL So were they trying to make sexual tension between them again with all Davids innuendos or was David hoping Maddie would take him up on it? I think all along David wanted things to be intimate between them again because he truly loves her but maddie didnt show the interest back. GRRRR LOL He sure did...how about "touch your tongue to my tongue"? And then he kind of backs off, but in such a cute way... And on the subject of that shower scene, pretty amazing that the shampoo "geyser" (ahem!) made it through the censors...and I still maintain that there should have been a kiss--or at least a longing glance--but they cut away from the scene far too quickly! The whole direction of the show could've been changed in this episode, if Maddie had (been allowed to) respond to David like, deep down, we know she really wanted to. Note to writers: by halfway through season 5, you can't keep playing the UST card--you've got to get them back together or shelve it, but don't tease us with this ambiguity that's not really ambiguous! Sorry...get a little frustrated when I think of the coulda/woulda/shoulda....
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 16:15:28 GMT -5
The question is: Is someone taunting Maddie here? If so, why and in what way?
I agree with one of our other wonderful girls here on the board that Maddie is being taunted by herself!Her beliefs/feelings cause this nightmare and how she feels/deals with/about the chair in her office and then look what happenss at the end Maddie gets hurt! Maddie worries about things too much ,over thinks things. You know Maddie says you have one life and she wants to make it count but our Maddie likes to think ,consider, contemplate, dont you think she is wasting alot of her life then by doing just that?
Ok just want to add i love how David is there with her in the hospital looking over her and the way he brushes her hair back from her face in a loving gesture SIGH!
|
|
|
Post by sinceifell4u on Jan 14, 2009 16:58:52 GMT -5
Well, I still don't enjoy the nightmare scene, but thanks to IBMs research, at least I understand it better!! I find it interesting that, as suggested by this dream analysis, the overarching themes of the nightmare seem to be repression, depression, and loss. Of course, we all know that Maddie is an "avoider;" this quality was the principal obstacle in her relationship with David and also is the main source of her dream: she has repressed her fears about death and so they come out here. But the depression and loss themes are more complex and intriguing, I think. One loss Maddie has suffered is David's presence as a potential or actual romantic partner. In spite of the kiss at the end of "Take My Wife," their relationship does not look like it's going to be rekindled. Maddie may still be conflicted about exactly where she wants it to go, but nonetheless, the fact that they are "pals" is clearly not fulfilling for her. She still loves him, IMO (look at her when he says "It wouldn't be heaven without you"), and misses what they had, as confusing and crazy as it was. The other significant loss she's suffered is obviously the death of her child. On one level, one of the most frustrating scenes of this entire season for me is the conversation in the car. (In and of itself, I actually find the scene charming, and love the little sparks that fly; but considered from a continuity standpoint, it drives me nuts.) When I first watched it, I remember feeling a little appalled that the writers would craft a lighthearted conversation about death that avoided any mention of--avoided even the appearance of avoiding--the most profound, devastating loss these two people had experienced. Based on the way the scene goes, you would never know that either of them had been closer to death than Harry and David's grandfather. However, looking at the dream analysis, I'm ready to give the writers (at least Chris Ruppenthal) a little more credit. The profusion of images that suggest pain and mourning, and the repression of those feelings, can't be accidental, and I'm willing to take the leap and believe that they were purposely crafted to refer to the loss of the baby. The only problem? It's pretty darn subtle...in fact, if you have to go rooting around in Mr. Freud's oeuvre in order to make the connection, maybe it's too subtle. A healthy dose of M & D hand-holding and glancing meaningfully at each other might have met the case more appropriately, IMO. Jpen, I understand what you mean about the subtlety in referring to the death of their child. Maybe they chose to inadvertently address it for a number of reasons...A. had been touched on in the elevator scene and B. The fans were p'd that the baby didn't come forth...so they kinda tried to act like it didn't happen to a degree. Very good point there Jpen.
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 17:07:48 GMT -5
Hey Jpen, i think you are so right in the fact that this episode should have brought up feelings about losing thier child. How could it not right? I'm not saying it should be talked about all the time, yes its a tv show and people dont wnat to see characters dwelling on sad things but umm this episode dealt with death, no way around it and this only happened to them in this same season. Ahh definitley a writers continuity issue here! quote author=sinceifell4u board=misc thread=928 post=15757 time=1231970332] Well, I still don't enjoy the nightmare scene, but thanks to IBMs research, at least I understand it better!! I find it interesting that, as suggested by this dream analysis, the overarching themes of the nightmare seem to be repression, depression, and loss. Of course, we all know that Maddie is an "avoider;" this quality was the principal obstacle in her relationship with David and also is the main source of her dream: she has repressed her fears about death and so they come out here. But the depression and loss themes are more complex and intriguing, I think. One loss Maddie has suffered is David's presence as a potential or actual romantic partner. In spite of the kiss at the end of "Take My Wife," their relationship does not look like it's going to be rekindled. Maddie may still be conflicted about exactly where she wants it to go, but nonetheless, the fact that they are "pals" is clearly not fulfilling for her. She still loves him, IMO (look at her when he says "It wouldn't be heaven without you"), and misses what they had, as confusing and crazy as it was. The other significant loss she's suffered is obviously the death of her child. On one level, one of the most frustrating scenes of this entire season for me is the conversation in the car. (In and of itself, I actually find the scene charming, and love the little sparks that fly; but considered from a continuity standpoint, it drives me nuts.) When I first watched it, I remember feeling a little appalled that the writers would craft a lighthearted conversation about death that avoided any mention of--avoided even the appearance of avoiding--the most profound, devastating loss these two people had experienced. Based on the way the scene goes, you would never know that either of them had been closer to death than Harry and David's grandfather. However, looking at the dream analysis, I'm ready to give the writers (at least Chris Ruppenthal) a little more credit. The profusion of images that suggest pain and mourning, and the repression of those feelings, can't be accidental, and I'm willing to take the leap and believe that they were purposely crafted to refer to the loss of the baby. The only problem? It's pretty darn subtle...in fact, if you have to go rooting around in Mr. Freud's oeuvre in order to make the connection, maybe it's too subtle. A healthy dose of M & D hand-holding and glancing meaningfully at each other might have met the case more appropriately, IMO. Jpen, I understand what you mean about the subtlety in referring to the death of their child. Maybe they chose to inadvertently address it for a number of reasons...A. had been touched on in the elevator scene and B. The fans were p'd that the baby didn't come forth...so they kinda tried to act like it didn't happen to a degree. Very good point there Jpen.[/quote]
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 17:09:29 GMT -5
Wow, ladies! I just finished reading your posts and... GREAT JOB, LADIES!!!! I'll try to reply to some of your brilliant observations! And BTW... sinceifell4u: YOU ROCK, GIRL!! I loved your research about the root chakra! Very pertinent! So, without further delay... But the depression and loss themes are more complex and intriguing, I think. One loss Maddie has suffered is David's presence as a potential or actual romantic partner. In spite of the kiss at the end of "Take My Wife," their relationship does not look like it's going to be rekindled. Maddie may still be conflicted about exactly where she wants it to go, but nonetheless, the fact that they are "pals" is clearly not fulfilling for her. She still loves him, IMO (look at her when he says "It wouldn't be heaven without you"), and misses what they had, as confusing and crazy as it was. I agree, jpen . She loves him, still she doesn't know how to deal with this acknowledgment. Nevertheless, she keeps on refusing the way he is: his beliefs (see the car scene), his attitude at "raising spirits" at the office (well, maybe she's right about that... ), etc etc. In a nutshell: she rejects what SHE wants to be. Explanation: read the meaning of the Grim Reaper in dream analysis..."To see the Grim Reaper in your dream signifies the negative, REJECTED aspects of your personality..." IMO, Maddie is just like us: she feels urges, passions and desires. She can be as spontaneous as David...But she doesn't allow herself to be. So I think there's a battle within her soul. She's split in half. There's a Maddie-businesswoman, whose priorities in life are earning money, making the business flourish, keeping a severe image of herself to the eyes of the world. And then there's a Maddie-wild maneater, who craves to seize David every time she sees him, throw him down to the carpet and...OK let me stop here, my room is getting too hot! ;D
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 17:12:57 GMT -5
Oh Jpen i forgot the tongue bit! LOL Yes he does kinda give this cute grin Yes they did get away with alot past the censors. The shampoo bit like we said was a big deal, very double meaning to that LOL And yes a quick kiss maybe wouldnt have hurt, but i know they were after the bad guys still LOL o He sure did...how about "touch your tongue to my tongue"? And then he kind of backs off, but in such a cute way... And on the subject of that shower scene, pretty amazing that the shampoo "geyser" (ahem!) made it through the censors...and I still maintain that there should have been a kiss--or at least a longing glance--but they cut away from the scene far too quickly! The whole direction of the show could've been changed in this episode, if Maddie had (been allowed to) respond to David like, deep down, we know she really wanted to. Note to writers: by halfway through season 5, you can't keep playing the UST card--you've got to get them back together or shelve it, but don't tease us with this ambiguity that's not really ambiguous! Sorry...get a little frustrated when I think of the coulda/woulda/shoulda....
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 17:19:03 GMT -5
And then there's a Maddie-wild maneater, who craves to seize David every time she sees him, throw him down to the carpet and...OK let me stop here, my room is getting too hot! ;D ROFLMAO! OMG IBM you are too much! i love it! And you are so right, Maddie has got all those naughty thoughts too about David, just like he has of her, he shows it , .......she doesnt LOL AND YUP IT'S HOT IN HERE! hehehe
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 17:19:56 GMT -5
When I first watched it, I remember feeling a little appalled that the writers would craft a lighthearted conversation about death that avoided any mention of--avoided even the appearance of avoiding--the most profound, devastating loss these two people had experienced. Based on the way the scene goes, you would never know that either of them had been closer to death than Harry and David's grandfather. Well, about the baby issue: I think the writers who worked on S5 were not fully aware of the concept of..."continuity"! I think they just wanted to pay homage to that movie, "The Trouble With Harry", and get some laughs out of it. Bringing to attention the loss of David and Maddie's baby would've killed the mood. IMO.
|
|
|
Post by rose35 on Jan 14, 2009 17:26:52 GMT -5
Ok just wiondering who here thought the beginning with David in the office with the guys talking about caling a 976 # the way David said he did was very childish? I mean yes that was so David in the before IACM era, but after his relationship with Maddie it makes you go hmm no wonder Maddie doesnt want to be with this man, he call 976 #'s? Ok couldnt he just have called Maddie and asked her to talk dirty to him over the phone? LOL
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 17:40:05 GMT -5
The only problem? It's pretty darn subtle...in fact, if you have to go rooting around in Mr. Freud's oeuvre in order to make the connection, maybe it's too subtle. A healthy dose of M & D hand-holding and glancing meaningfully at each other might have met the case more appropriately, IMO. Hot damn, you are right, jpen ! But dreams are so intriguing and thought-provoking because they're mysterious, you know... If they were clear as the sun to anybody, they would not trigger our imagination in such a way! Anyway, about the nightmare: I hereby state that: a) it was WAY too creepy; b) it was cheap; c) I did NOT like it, just like you guys; d) it was too enigmatic (though I believe it had a deep meaning). The writer just picked the wrong approach. This is not ML stuff! This is not what we wanna see!! Leave that stuff to those weirdos who believe the Government is hiding secrets about UFOs and chem trails and...why toast machines must always char one's breakfast!!! ;D
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 17:53:31 GMT -5
The passion (love) she feels for him combined with the sexual tension (physical) vs. her personal value system (spiritual) is the driving force of her confusion...there is a battle for control in the same region...a civil war of sorts. We all know that together we will stand for something but divided we will fall for anything...Maddie is divided within herself, producing utter confusion, which in turn produces consciously bad choices. As if she is attacking herself for going against what she has believed for so long, it's self sabotage! My example of a conscious choice: Maddie practically admits to Wally that she has attempted to eliminate and don't quote me, the possibility of David destroying her life, through her marriage to Wally. Not her life in daily living... but life as she knew it in her core being for so long. So after saying all that, Maddie is taunting Maddie...you only meet you! Nothing outside of you can affect you I couldn't have said that better myself, sinceifell4u !! Have you considered the possibility to write a little essay about it? I'm serious! This is G-R-E-A-T !!!
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 18:18:04 GMT -5
Bringing to attention the loss of David and Maddie's baby would've killed the mood. IMO. You're absolutely right, IBM, and as I said, I do enjoy the happy tone of the scene (Maddie actually laughs--we haven't seen enough of that, for sure!). And, as a few people pointed out, they did deal with M & D's grief in the elevator scene in BAYAAHP. I just think, if you're going to do an episode about death and mortality, to totally ignore the fact that these two have recently been bereaved in a horrible, tragic way, is pretty irresponsible from a continuity standpoint (and I know, it's a fruitless argument, really, since continuity was NOT a priority that season). They didn't need to reference the baby's death in the car conversation necessarily, but I would've thought it might come up in at least one conversation or scene...even if it was just a look between them (or a look away from each other--as if they were avoiding talking about it). IMO.
|
|
|
Post by jpen on Jan 14, 2009 18:20:00 GMT -5
The writer just picked the wrong approach. This is not ML stuff! This is not what we wanna see!! Leave that stuff to those weirdos who believe the Government is hiding secrets about UFOs and chem trails and...why toast machines must always char one's breakfast!!! ;D Too right, as always, IBM!!
|
|
|
Post by beesnbears on Jan 14, 2009 18:20:05 GMT -5
You know, I can't believe I did not associate the death of Harry and the dark nightmare with the death of Maddie and David's baby. I guess it is because by this time in the show they had basically shoved all of that and then some under the rug. I think it is possible that they were trying to be very subtle about the topic and as someone said the writers were so different by this time that it would not surprise me if some of them did not even know that Maddie had lost a baby on the show! It makes me wonder had they revealed to Maddie and David that David was indeed the father would it had mattered in this episode. ....probably not. I will say that I had not forgotten about the death of the baby entirely. The one time it did resurface for me was the first time I saw the episode and when they were in the hospital with Maddie's bump on her noggin. I do remember thinking that it would be very hard to have to come back to the same hospital so soon and thought that they would address their loss more at that point......it was already under that big ol' rug....... Anyone ever feel like in order to really understand Maddie and David that it is sometimes best to just leave out Season 5? Not that there are not some good shows in that season, but it is just to darn confusing!! .....yeah, I know........
|
|
|
Post by italianbluemooner on Jan 14, 2009 18:25:13 GMT -5
3. In the light of that little essay about dream symbolism, what's your interpretation of Maddie's nightmare?- The color red: Maddie is repressing her urges. - Dark green: aka Maddie The Businesswoman vs. Maddie The Panther...Sometimes the first wins, sometimes not... - Adder: I'd put the accent on the "may also be seen as phallic and thus symbolize temptation..." part. Oh, c'mon, ladies! You never had dirty dreams? I don't believe that! ;D - Weeds, old ideas and negative thoughts: that means, IMO, Maddie still has prejudices toward the employees (weeds cover their workspaces, too) and she doesn't hold her job in high esteem, yet. - Black Moon: aka the office intended as a place where anything can happen. An our Maddie hates uncertainty. - Dark room: see above - Telephone: this symbol is veery interesting... Is Maddie trying to communicate with Maddie? If so, what does she want to tell her? Couldn't it be her wild side is telling her facade: "Honey, loosen up, go into the other room, grab the man behind that desk and...Oh my, here we go again! ;D - Arm: Maddie needs to interact with other human beings, but doesn't let herself. - Skeleton: I'd highlight "to see a skeleton in your dream, represents something that is not fully developed...", that is, her relationship with David. She needs to explore uncharted territories with him. More to come!
|
|